Women’s Self-Supported 14er FKT

[Alpine_Iris]

Landowners that think they have a legitimate right to keep people off the land outside their backyards are delusional. It's interesting that there is such a deferential attitude towards private land on this website. Over on lists of john people trespass constantly. You'd think that a community of hikers would recognize that private owners are systemically** opposed to our interests in access and preservation. Idk I guess a lot of you are old conservatives. But seriously, look into the history of private land in this state/the western US. The right to go where you want was taken away from all of us so that a few individuals could make some money. Not to mention the methods by which land was "acquired" from natives. Land is a finite resource that belongs to all of us. All people should have the right to respectfully enjoy undeveloped land. It is insane that one person/company could "own" an entire mountain or more.

**(obviously some landowners have been helpful to hikers, but usually they have to go against their financial best interest to do so)

Some action our state could take:

-Heavily curtail extractive industries and grazing. Mining and extraction is just 3.8% of Colorado's GDP, and agriculture is only 0.5%. https://www.statista.com/statistics/594 ... -industry/ Destroying our land with mining is part of our past, not our future. Making it much harder for mining operations to exist would probably help stop weirdos from holding on to mining claims that restrict access. The state could also allow the public to cross mining claims unless they are actively developed. If you've ever hiked Antora (or the nearby section of the CT), you know how much harm overgrazing can do (and how much excrement is left behind). Allowing private companies to use public land to grow their cows, and allowing them to keep people off that leased land is something that needs to stop. Beef production is one of the main drivers of climate change, and it has no place on our public lands, and no place in high elevation ecosystems.

-Introduce a right to roam. This could be something that ensures people are allowed to hike or otherwise recreate on private land as long as they are a certain distance from occupied dwellings and follow certain LNT guidelines. Read Ken Ilgunas's book about this, it's very good. For colorado, an interesting idea could be a right to roam above a certain elevation, as there are (to the best of my knowledge) no houses above 11.7k.

-proactively work to obtain privately owned wild areas, especially inholdings and parcels that restrict access. Culebra+friends (and the rest of the mega ranches for that matter) should be a state park, and we should imminent domain it. Recreation/Tourism is about 14% of colorado's GDP and employs about 16% of Coloradans https://kiowacountypress.net/content/co ... onomy-2022. Much bigger than the opposing extractive industries. Restricting access concentrates use (especially in the foothills where most land is private). If we expand access to more areas, then people can recreate more sustainably.

Hiking in the foothills has really radicalized me on private land. The rich see land as an opportunity to make money, or as a personal playground. Did you know that Nike almost built an office building on top of south table mountain? Luckily action from locals prevented it. Land is a common resource that we should all share and respect. Trespassing on culebra is awesome, and we shouldn't be giving in to the demands of an oil billionaire (William Bruce Harrison) that has a piece of paper that says he owns these mountains.

[jfm3]

I paid for Culebra twice. The first time was in May 2021. Turned around on the false summit after slogging through thigh-deep unsupportive snow up the big slope, and got a second-degree sunburn on my nose. Fun. It was much easier the next year on dry ground.

(I realize this has nothing to do with the conversation, but I want to be part of the possible Thread of the Summer/maybe Hall of Fame entry)

In terms of fitness, Erin can set a very competitive pace on the 14ers. She's a great runner. But the hardest part of this might be driving solo! That's a lot of fatigued miles behind the wheel.

[mtnhigh358]

Trespassing on culebra is awesome.

[highheeledhiker]

Are you going to do the full FKT in high heels?

Obviously

[highheeledhiker]

When I go to FKT sites, I don’t really see many strict black and white rules, but there is a strong recommendation that routes should not cross private property, mainly out of fairness considerations. One person may have access and the next may not. One person may want to avoid trespassing and the next may not. You could have a situation (seems to be the case here) where the landowner just doesn’t like someone and won’t grant access, while he may relax the rules for someone else. That’s not really fair and as others have brought up, it introduces unequal treatment based on who has better connections and that’s not what FKT is supposed to be about.

FKT rules seem to suggest that routes are supposed to be open to everyone and if they’re not, they shouldn’t be included in the competition. Given all of the access issues with 6 peaks now, it seems like the only two solutions are to either remove them or replace them with 6 similar peaks. For instance I’ve always thought Yale is essentially the same mountain as Culebra only with more elevation gain. Or replace Culebra with W Spanish or something else nearby. Seems like all of FKT current and past FKT competitors here are smart people with respect to Colorado mountains and could come up with suitable replacements / time allowances.

It seems like with respect to FKT, continuing to make competitors jump through hoops, pull strings, offer money, make personal ethical decisions about whether to trespass or not, isn’t really a viable solution. Unless all Colorado 14er FKT is paused until the access issues clear up. But that could take years.

I 100% agree with this comment. I honestly wish Carlos would just close Culebra Peak to all hikers so that it could be an even playing field. The purpose of this FKT is to test athletic and mental limits not to see who has the most connections. I absolutely love the logistical component of planning peak order and routes. It is truly a puzzle. But, as you mentioned, being stuck in the position of whether to trespass or not crosses a line and undermines what this FKT is about. Obviously, no one wants to trespass given the option but there needs to be a consensus about what constitutes a record, which is what I’m trying to assess now. While it may not be as personally fulfilling, I would happily climb the next highest or comparable peaks.

Did I read that right? Because figuring out the FKT stuff is difficult for you in relation to Culebra, you would prefer access to be revoked for everybody? You'd prefer that the rest of us not be able to enjoy such a beautiful peak because you want things to be easier for you and other FKTers?

Those of you in pursuit of records, y'all are not more special than other hikers, you're just doing something different than the rest of us. It's hard to respect an FKTer if they fail to consider the good of the 14er/peak community at large in favor of their own endeavor or their own means to an end.

Good luck figuring everything out.

Yes, I would prefer for Culebra to be shut down. I’ve said this for years. Sorry if the egos of all you peakbaggers will be harmed for not being able to tick another one off your list. Boo hoo. There are plenty of other beautiful peaks out there. More beautiful. Less trafficked. Check out the centennials and 13ers. Why are other 14ers like Sunlight Spire not included on the list? Seems very arbitrary. As others have stated, the crux of an FKT should not be this bureaucratic bulls**t and who is in bed with Carlos (or rather who he lets buy him his favorite dinner...)

https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/o ... -mountain/

[Briere]

Hold on. Am I reading this correctly that in pursuit of an FKT you're actually considering trespassing again as an option? You can't be serious.

I'd think they wouldn't be so kind about dropping the charges a second time if they catch you.

Did you seriously willfully ignore the literal next sentence from your quote? "While it may not be as personally fulfilling, I would happily climb the next highest or comparable peaks." I read it as Erin making a point that inconsistent rules that vary year to year or person to person cause an issue with a consistent record, which is valid. The crux of an FKT is not supposed to be endless bureaucracy or using connections to get around access issues. In my opinion Culebra shouldn't be included at all in FKT records, or should be fair game to substitute with a similar peak...we make plenty of exceptions for things like Sunlight Spire and subpeaks that it's arbitrary anyway.

And there are plenty of reasons why myself and others would never want to pay CVR for access even if it cost 1 cent. I don't know why so many people are so eager to bend over backwards to pay a Texan oil tycoon who has fought against allowing locals, homesteaders, and the prevalent indigenous community to use land which they have had access to for centuries. Land that should be public in the first place. Not to mention predatory business practices, complete lack of transparency, or willing to work with the local community unless there's $$$ in it for them. Seems to me it's more selfish to support an organization like that just to get a tick for your 58.

Does having it "checked off" really add that much when you're looking at a list that includes such monsters as Little Bear, Capitol, the Bells?

To me it all comes down to did you do them all though, especially in a FKT. This is really stretching it BUT if you go for the 7 highest peaks on each continent and skip Kili but get the rest you 100% have the ability since that's by far the easiest but if you didn't climb that one you didn't get all 7.

[highheeledhiker]

But, as you mentioned, being stuck in the position of whether to trespass or not crosses a line and undermines what this FKT is about. Obviously, no one wants to trespass given the option but there needs to be a consensus about what constitutes a record, which is what I’m trying to assess now.

Hold on. Am I reading this correctly that in pursuit of an FKT you're actually considering trespassing again as an option? You can't be serious.

I'd think they wouldn't be so kind about dropping the charges a second time if they catch you.

Never said I was personally considering this. And it wasn’t the ranch that decided to drop the charges.

[highheeledhiker]

But, as you mentioned, being stuck in the position of whether to trespass or not crosses a line and undermines what this FKT is about. Obviously, no one wants to trespass given the option but there needs to be a consensus about what constitutes a record, which is what I’m trying to assess now.

Hold on. Am I reading this correctly that in pursuit of an FKT you're actually considering trespassing again as an option? You can't be serious.

I'd think they wouldn't be so kind about dropping the charges a second time if they catch you.

Did you seriously willfully ignore the literal next sentence from your quote? "While it may not be as personally fulfilling, I would happily climb the next highest or comparable peaks." I read it as Erin making a point that inconsistent rules that vary year to year or person to person cause an issue with a consistent record, which is valid. The crux of an FKT is not supposed to be endless bureaucracy or using connections to get around access issues. In my opinion Culebra shouldn't be included at all in FKT records, or should be fair game to substitute with a similar peak...we make plenty of exceptions for things like Sunlight Spire and subpeaks that it's arbitrary anyway.

And there are plenty of reasons why myself and others would never want to pay CVR for access even if it cost 1 cent. I don't know why so many people are so eager to bend over backwards to pay a Texan oil tycoon who has fought against allowing locals, homesteaders, and the prevalent indigenous community to use land which they have had access to for centuries. Land that should be public in the first place. Not to mention predatory business practices, complete lack of transparency, or willing to work with the local community unless there's $$$ in it for them. Seems to me it's more selfish to support an organization like that just to get a tick for your 58.

Couldn’t have stated it better. Watch out though, people on this forum get very stirred up if they can’t brag that they have all 58 lol

[HikerGuy]

Why are other 14ers like Sunlight Spire not included on the list? Seems very arbitrary.

The only arbitrary peak I can think of is North Massive for winter FKT attempts and possibly the unranked named 14ers (53 vs 58). Sunlight Spire is a poor example for the argument as it is not a 14er, its elevation is 13,996 feet, https://listsofjohn.com/peak/67. It is also has never been ranked and is an unofficially named point.

Edited for clarity.

[highheeledhiker]

Hold on. Am I reading this correctly that in pursuit of an FKT you're actually considering trespassing again as an option? You can't be serious.

I'd think they wouldn't be so kind about dropping the charges a second time if they catch you.

Did you seriously willfully ignore the literal next sentence from your quote? "While it may not be as personally fulfilling, I would happily climb the next highest or comparable peaks." I read it as Erin making a point that inconsistent rules that vary year to year or person to person cause an issue with a consistent record, which is valid. The crux of an FKT is not supposed to be endless bureaucracy or using connections to get around access issues. In my opinion Culebra shouldn't be included at all in FKT records, or should be fair game to substitute with a similar peak...we make plenty of exceptions for things like Sunlight Spire and subpeaks that it's arbitrary anyway.

And there are plenty of reasons why myself and others would never want to pay CVR for access even if it cost 1 cent. I don't know why so many people are so eager to bend over backwards to pay a Texan oil tycoon who has fought against allowing locals, homesteaders, and the prevalent indigenous community to use land which they have had access to for centuries. Land that should be public in the first place. Not to mention predatory business practices, complete lack of transparency, or willing to work with the local community unless there's $$$ in it for them. Seems to me it's more selfish to support an organization like that just to get a tick for your 58.

I've never really understood the desire to get a name in a record book and so I tend to agree with this take. Culebra may be beautiful, I may want all 54, but I'm not paying an oil tycoon for something that truly feels to me like it should be for the people. That being said, Culebra is private property so... I've made peace with the fact that I wouldn't be in a record book or some such nonsense. I know what I'm willing to do and not do. That said, I sure wouldn't be trespassing on Culebra and potentially threatening the access to the peak that has been fought so hard to get to where it is now. Especially because it sounds like the staff at the ranch try their best to work this system for hikers as best they can, and I'm sure they deal with some big headaches. I'm sure they're good people, even if I disagree that this land should be allowed to be privately owned.

If you've got most or all the 14ers, I'm pretty sure you could nab Culebra with regards to skill. Does having it "checked off" really add that much when you're looking at a list that includes such monsters as Little Bear, Capitol, the Bells? Is the satisfaction that much sweeter? If anything the history of Culebra over time has really poisoned the peak, at least to me, it feels tainted because of the history of CVR and blatant money-grubbing dating back to those original land deals long ago, especially when it's always rich people demanding money for access to something they sure don't use daily in the way most average people use their property. I get the property angle but the way you use your house and property associated with that land and the way an oil barron uses a ranch in another state with significant public interest and communal good potential are not equal. And most people's property just does not have the kind of public interest and collective use potential the 14ers have and I think it's odd to treat these two examples of property of land as equivalent, especially when practices like Eminent Domain are absolutely used to shove people off property they legitimately use to its fullest in the name of communal good.

Folks do what they got to do for fulfillment, and we all have the lines we'll cross and the ones we won't. I just know I don't really get the need for checking off each of them especially when Culebra's history is so tainted by greed.

Appreciate the comment. Many good points. If I don’t do Culebra as a part of the record (I potentially have legal access not through Carlos), I would never proclaim that I have. I would be very open about it. All I’m saying is that it’s about damn time the record changes given the absurd circumstances. I have heard people refer to themselves as “ABC finishers”- anything but culebra. I would be the first woman to ever do a self-supported speed record. And a record for all the legal ones could be a category of its own. This would be a way to compare pure athletic and mental fortitude without all the other stuff.

[JQDivide]

The irony and hypocrisy of some of the statements in this thread are almost laughable.

[12ersRule]

Appreciate the comment. Many good points. If I don’t do Culebra as a part of the record (I potentially have legal access not through Carlos), I would never proclaim that I have. I would be very open about it. All I’m saying is that it’s about damn time the record changes given the absurd circumstances. I have heard people refer to themselves as “ABC finishers”- anything but culebra. I would be the first woman to ever do a self-supported speed record. And a record for all the legal ones could be a category of its own. This would be a way to compare pure athletic and mental fortitude without all the other stuff.

If you're the first woman doing self-supported, you set the standard. Why sweat Culebra? Just do the rest. You said you were doing this for you.