A Philosophical Discussion, Need Input

[LifeIsGood]

Since this thread has been bumped back up, I’ll go ahead and provide some conclusions:

Firstly, to point out that Cotton seemed to have misinterpreted the Original Post:

The answer is NOT "it just did" - this is only your own ignorance or choice to put faith over science.

The Original Post actually made no mention of “faith,” by which he is probably referring to an assumed faith in a supreme being, typically referred to as “God,” who some believe created the Universe.

One purpose of this discussion was to examine how much of reality can be explained by our current scientific knowledge, and to philosophize about what remains unexplained. Honestly, I always thought it was extremely unlikely that our present reality was in any way planned or designed, but having a scientific mindset means always being open to any possibility, especially if it can’t be disproven.

Perhaps this entire discussion is inappropriate on a mountaineering forum, but I wanted to tap the wisdom of some like-minded people, whose responses so far have been incomparably better than the other Internet discussions that I read through, like Reddit for example.

And lastly, Eli Boardman referred to some fascinating concepts:

quantum mechanics, observer effect, wave function collapse, etc.

Trying to understand research in quantum physics is nearly impossible for anyone not formally educated in that field, but a simplified summary is: the more we strive to understand reality on a subatomic level, the more bizarre and unexplainable everything becomes.

IN CONCLUSION: anyone who feels that science has, in fact, already answered all of the WHY questions posed here, probably hasn’t reviewed all of the science.

For now, I am going to stick with the following explanation of reality: most likely, our universe simply expands and contracts indefinitely, due to laws of physics that simply exist, and this process may occur forever. It is miraculous that we humans have come to exist out of non-living components, but there does not seem to be an answer as to WHY we are here, so we must each create our own sense of purpose- but don’t just blindly follow the herd!

[HikerBox]

Actually you could argue that the dependency of quantum mechanics on observers being present points to a grand simulation (why simulate things if no observers are present?). The planck length is the smallest measurable length in space and might be the resolution of our reality.

But I really just prefer Conan's approach (with the enemies being mountains and their womens lamentations being strava kudos):

[Dave B]

IN CONCLUSION: anyone who feels that science has, in fact, already answered all of the WHY questions posed here, probably hasn’t reviewed all of the science.

Your questions are metaphysical, not scientific. Science is a tool; an approach to answering questions objectively using empirical evidence. You questions are fundamentally subjective, in that they will differ based on and individuals lived experiences, and thus rely on metaphysical principles derived from religion and philosophy.

You are, in effect, getting upset with a radial saw because it does a poor job driving screws into walls.

[LifeIsGood]

driving screws into walls.

I guess I can just use my forehead for this task, since everyone says that I’m just banging my head on the wall!

NIHILISTS! YOU’RE ALL A BUNCH OF NIHILISTS!

[Lucas Pattie]

I am enthused to see there seem to be so many people interested in such things. I can remember for years, as I would be on a grueling ascent up a mountain or hiking the seemingly never-ending approach trail back to the car, I would say, "why do I do this?', with a note of cynicism. A few years ago as I wondered this anew, I decided to put together a video essay on my channel addressing this question. It is about 20 minutes long: In it, I did something similar to what you have done, and broke a possible answer down into component answers, because the activity referred to by the single term 'mountain climbing' is probably a composite of numerous activities happening at once. This corresponds to the multi-faceted nature of the self, which has many distinct drives, each perhaps separately seeking to expend itself in this 'one activity.' To that effect, the different possible 'motives' I talked about were the challenge, the aesthetic, social fulfillment (if not going alone), the exercise, and fear. All of these can be satisfied in many ways besides mtn climbing, so what is there, if anything, that stands as unique to it in terms of goal or motive 'satisfaction'? Here, I thought the answer could be found in the aesthetic aspect of it, and more specifically within the 'sublime' part of the aesthetic - that is, in the kind of beauty and wonder in which are revealed the vast, the panoramic, even the forbidding and the fearful (but at once, paradoxically, the exhilarating and the beckoning?). But where I think the question gets really fascinating is in the possibility that climbing the mtn is self-encounter. After all, we battle our self, struggle and overcome our self in becoming our self, which maybe above all is itself a sublime, daunting, formidable, but also exhilarating and beckoning task. Given these ponderings, in the end, my 'answer' was something like to say that mountain climbing brings together a host of already individually strong drives, and ties them together in the longing to experience the sense of the sublime, and with it the sense of discovering and rejuvenating the self through the awe and the wonder of the world, in which and to which the self is immediately, intimately, and inextricably bound.

But....to the 2nd part of your post: 'Why' is a strange question, and I have found becomes stranger and less decipherable the more you think about it. 'Why' supposes there are causes and effects in the world. For one thing, as you observe, any answer only pushes the inquiry back another step to the next 'why.' Can you ever reach the final 'because' for the final 'why'? And if so, will you even recognize it? Or be satisfied with it? Personally, I think there is ultimately, strictly speaking, no such thing as causation. All we ever sense is one thing following another, maybe quite reliably, but we never sense any third thing enter into the sequence. There seems to be sequence, change, but cause could be just a mental construct we need to make sense of the world. 'What came before the beginning of the universe'? It's just speculation of course, but my preferred answer to avoid infinite regress and/or arbitrary endings is to think time is a great circle, the world always has been and always will be, and 'events' flow seamlessly one into the next and so on, without any need for the arbitrary and awkward abrupt suddenness of a 'beginning' or an 'end.'

But....this thinking about cause and effect also applies to mental events and the self. Ultimately, I probably will never know why I climb mountains. The reason or reasons for doing so, if they exist, might well reside deep in the ocean of unconscious drives and bodily operations, forever hidden and locked away from conscious accessibility in much the same way that I do not consciously oversee and manage the day-to-day functioning of my cell division and my digestive process. My professed 'reasons' could be just fanciful cognitive framing of what I do, and amount to as much as mere foam and froth on the surface of the ocean. Anyway, just my 2 cents input.

-Lucas

[jibler]

so this is a funny thread to see just now.

because - i was having this funny discussion with the google AI where i was trying to determine if Peak Fever (or any mountain related exaltation) may actually have something to do the speeding up of time as you get to higher elevations.


the machine said that general relativity holds that those changes in time dilation are so minute as to not be able to effect human consciousness.

to which i rebutted "and you are an expert on the nature of human consciousness?"

I'm still looking into this one.


why are people driven to climb these things? is there some kind of other other connection out there??

[LifeIsGood]

the question gets really fascinating in the possibility that climbing the mtn is self-encounter

This phrase is my favorite part of this post, and CONGRATULATIONS to Lucas! He gets first prize for best contribution to this discussion, somehow putting hard-to-define concepts in to words.

And his monologue video was surprisingly thought-provoking!

P.S. to Jibler: be wary of interacting with computers, they are definitely plotting to take over the world

[nyker]

Read Winnie the Pooh

[SkaredShtles]

Read Winnie the Pooh

Excellent advice, actually.

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[Jim Davies]

Personally, I consult other animal comics for philosophical insights. Substitute "climb a mountain" for "listen to song", etc.

comic2-5184.png

[cedica]

[two lunches]

i was having this funny discussion with the google AI where i was trying to determine if Peak Fever (or any mountain related exaltation) may actually have something to do the speeding up of time as you get to higher elevations.


the machine said that general relativity holds that those changes in time dilation are so minute as to not be able to effect human consciousness.

no human being would allege that time speeds up in the Red Gully. Gemini is definitely a bot.