A new 13er?

[Garrett]

Hi All,

Last week on August 26th Heather Ryan and I climbed an unrecognized 5th class 13er located on the north and connecting ridge of Peak Eleven. We’ve been calling it “Lost Needle” since it’s been seemingly hidden amongst so many other great peaks without much notice or attention. Lost Needle has a spot elevation on the USGS topo of 13,172 and a summit coordinate at approx. 37.632757, -107.606644. It seems like this is another potentially ranked peak with a prominence very close too 300 feet. Ranked or not it is a very fun climb on good rock in a great location and deserves a place on the peak list but I’m sure several of you will be interested whether it hits the 300 foot mark or not.

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I’m not a LIDAR expert by any means but have looked at point clouds and used the USGS Potree models to try and figure out the prominence. The summit data is straight forward but the saddle is a bit confusing to me. There is a slightly overhanging cliff above the saddle and a large boulder on the east side making it difficult to tell if the LIDAR data is capturing enough points to accurately represent it. It would be greatly appreciated to get input from some of the folks on here like Joseph Nephi that are very good at working with LIDAR. There are two summit data points ~100ish ft apart with the same point cloud elevation at 4018.23 meters (13183.1 ft). The saddle is fairly narrow with an elevation of 3926.92 m (12883.5 ft) and 299.6 feet of prominence. Or possibly 3927.11 m leading to 298.9 feet of prominence. That data is from the Potree model. Using the raw point cloud data there seem to be points that would place the prominence slightly over 300 feet but it seems to me like there is a lot of noise in the saddle. Not sure what to make of that.

For a little background, this peak caught my interest several years ago due to it being so steep and foreboding on all sides. Last August when Heather and I were in Ruby Basin I was able to get several photos from Monitor and Peak 12 and began looking at LIDAR data and historic records for both a route or any helpful info. Not much was to be found and LIDAR indicated it could be a ranked peak. A year later we were able to make the trip into No Name to try and climb it.

As to the actual climb, the easiest route is found on the west side of the peak and follows the cliff base southward along easy terrain until the upper summit slabs are visible. Class 3 climbing toward a large notch brings you to the base of the slabs and a right facing dihedral. The route from here goes at about 5.4 with two roped pitches on good quality rock, very similar in difficulty to Wham Ridge or Peak Fifteen. The climbing is fun, unintimidating and the view across the steep slab is incredible. We climbed with 30m half ropes, a single set of cams and nuts and using only small to medium sizes. Pitch 1 was comfortable but run out and a rope stretching 31m with sparse gear. I had to excavate dirt out of the cracks for a few placements but all were solid. Pitch 2 was an easier 15m pitch with limited placement options ending at a large ledge. Small cams are helpful to set up a belay here. A single 60m could link both pitches. From the top of pitch 2 obvious ramps on class 3 terrain lead to the summit. The slabs end at the first summit, which we thought was the main summit and placed a register there. The second summit from Lidar is an easy but occasionally exposed class 3 walk along the ridge. We rapped off slung horns on the ridge crest near the top of Pitch 2, placing green cord for a short rap to the top of pitch 1. Slinging more horns on the ridge crest we rapped pitch 1 at a full 30m rap back to the starting ledge with our packs. Only a foot or so of rope was left so watch your ends. Doubtful the rap cord will be there long on both raps given its exposure to the wind.

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Saddle

To access the saddle it seems like one could scramble up to it somewhat easily on the east side but we didn’t investigate that since it’s a long walk around and our summit route is on the west. We climbed two 5.7ish pitches starting on a blocky arete for pitch 1 and moving into a chimney for pitch 2. Some easy scrambling above pitch 2 reaches the saddle. Two rappels from slung blocks were used to descend.



I’m happy to provide whatever info I can and look forward to hearing what you guys think on this peak and it’s prominence.

[Garrett]

Here’s the pic of the saddle. Couldn’t get it to load in the first post.

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[d_baker]

I like your chosen name! Great work!

[Boggy B]

Awesome! I've been interested in this peak for years but haven't gotten around to checking it out.
There was a LiDAR analysis of it, and it was found to have 295'. See here and Mike's reply: viewtopic.php?style=8&p=770652#p770652
The LoJ analysis page now only shows the top 200 results so I'm not able to see the notes there anymore.

It was clear the saddle with Eleven was overhung, but I couldn't tell if there was additionally a hidden deep notch in the saddle. LiDAR could miss a saddle under an overhang. But on inspecting the LPC, LiDAR hit close enough to the saddle that, barring the presence of a narrow slot there, an error wasn't going to make up the difference from 300'.

Still, it looks like a cool and worthy summit. Nice report!


Edit: I should add, how tall is that boulder in the saddle? This highlights an interesting scenario where the rock forms a pinch/arch overhanging what could be argued is the true saddle.

[josephnephi]

Nice!

Looking manually at the point cloud there is a lot going on with high and low return stacked right on top of each other! In the LiDAR I'm seeing two saddle candidates. One at 3928.15m and one at 3928.19 resulting in 295.5 and 295.4 feet of prominence respectively. Given that big boulder there at the saddle and the chaos that is the LiDAR point cloud, some sort of dGPS measurement is very intriguing! My hunch is the same as Boggy that it's probably going to stay unranked, but you never know!

Do you have any other saddle pictures and how high would you estimate the boulder is above the ground?

So cool!

[HikerGuy]

Very interesting! Like Boggy, I'm curious to see what folks think about the boulder and open space below. The boulder is clearly jammed solidly into the slope at the top. So, is the top the saddle or the open space underneath? This will be an interesting debate. Using an arch analogy, I would say the top is the saddle. I would argue that the low saddle point needs to have complete, unobstructed clearance to the sky above. Taking the argument further, should one require enough clearance for a person to stand on the saddle? If overhung, how much clearance to sky above required?

[Boggy B]

Good excuse to check out the LPC again. Here you can see there's quite good definition at the overhung saddle.

13183.jpg

The big boulder shows up well, and in fact I'm pretty sure it hit the smaller adjacent boulder. Outlined roughly below along with the 2 saddle candidates.
If the pinch is the saddle then it's 3928.11 = 12887.5 = 295.67' prominence
If the base is the saddle then it's 3927.11 = 12884.22 = 298.95' prominence

13183_saddle.jpg

[Monster5]

This highlights an interesting scenario where the rock forms a pinch/arch overhanging what could be argued is the true saddle.

This is similar to Kissing Couple in the Monument. There is a ~50-foot-deep fist-sized crack obscured by an overhang to the true lowpoint. I doubt LiDAR captured the true lowpoint, but luckily it hit the common threshold prominence regardless.

[supranihilest]

We’ve been calling it “Lost Needle”

I like your chosen name! Great work!

Per 14ers.com Rulebook Rule No. 4,938, section 25, sub-section 19, paragraph 399, clause 84.33, chapter and verse 29:751, located on page 928,294,847 (1, 2) Garrett is not a 13er finisher and therefore gets no say, but according to those with Very Good Brains, my opinion matters deeply so I shall call this Noname Needle, and no, I don't want to hear any sass that there's already a Noname Needle because I, the Great Sage and Oracle of All Things Named and Haver of Opinionated Opinions Verily, as the titles which have been applied to me thusly state, therefore it was, it is, and it always will be Noname Needle backwards, now (in the indefinite), and forward, etc. etc. so on and so forth, hold your peace and may God forgive your mortal souls. Amen.

[d_baker]

We’ve been calling it “Lost Needle”

I like your chosen name! Great work!

Per 14ers.com Rulebook Rule No. 4,938, section 25, sub-section 19, paragraph 399, clause 84.33, chapter and verse 29:751, located on page 928,294,847 (1, 2) Garrett is not a 13er finisher and therefore gets no say, but according to those with Very Good Brains, my opinion matters deeply so I shall call this Noname Needle, and no, I don't want to hear any sass that there's already a Noname Needle because I, the Great Sage and Oracle of All Things Named and Haver of Opinionated Opinions Verily, as the titles which have been applied to me thusly state, therefore it was, it is, and it always will be Noname Needle backwards, now (in the indefinite), and forward, etc. etc. so on and so forth, hold your peace and may God forgive your mortal souls. Amen.

The little guy has spoken.
But, have you climbed Noname Needle?
If not, you shouldn't have a say.
I think Garrat has, so with the exception of his remaining ranked 13er, his summit of Noname, along with the other unranked spires he has climbed, he trumps your dumb rule, Ben. (If trumping is involved, renaming s**t is how it is)

Edit: also, as a possible first ascent (???), he stills trumps you littleBenguy! He gets to name it, or at least the route!

[supranihilest]

We’ve been calling it “Lost Needle”

I like your chosen name! Great work!

Per 14ers.com Rulebook Rule No. 4,938, section 25, sub-section 19, paragraph 399, clause 84.33, chapter and verse 29:751, located on page 928,294,847 (1, 2) Garrett is not a 13er finisher and therefore gets no say, but according to those with Very Good Brains, my opinion matters deeply so I shall call this Noname Needle, and no, I don't want to hear any sass that there's already a Noname Needle because I, the Great Sage and Oracle of All Things Named and Haver of Opinionated Opinions Verily, as the titles which have been applied to me thusly state, therefore it was, it is, and it always will be Noname Needle backwards, now (in the indefinite), and forward, etc. etc. so on and so forth, hold your peace and may God forgive your mortal souls. Amen.

The little guy has spoken.
But, have you climbed Noname Needle?
If not, you shouldn't have a say.
I think Garrat has, so with the exception of his remaining ranked 13er, his summit of Noname, along with the other unranked spires he has climbed, he trumps your dumb rule, Ben. (If trumping is involved, renaming s**t is how it is)

Edit: also, as a possible first ascent (???), he stills trumps you littleBenguy! He gets to name it, or at least the route!

Death be unto the non-believer!

[LifeIsGood]

We’ve been calling it “Lost Needle” since it’s been seemingly hidden amongst so many other great peaks without much notice or attention.

But this peak already had a name that was used by Native Americans: “Eldeen’tsol,” which translates to “Steep Needle that is Lost”

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Just kidding- really awesome accomplishment! And great thread, combining elements of objective-based climbing, vs list-based climbing, and some interesting tech nerd discussion as well.