Hybrid axes and snow climbing

[ekalina]

I have a BD raven axe (65 cm). It has a straight shaft with an unaggressive pick, but has served me well on the moderate snow climbs I’ve done with it so far. I’m thinking about some steeper routes for a spring not too far away, like Snow Lion, Dragons Tail, Pacific’s North couloir, maybe Skywalker. I’d like to have a second tool for those.

But I’m having trouble figuring out how the Raven fits into this plan. Do I:

a) Buy one hybrid axe (perhaps the Petzl gully) and bring it along with the Raven?
b) Buy two hybrid axes (perhaps the BD Venoms) and don’t bring the Raven?

Arguments for a) in my head:
1. Cheaper (but not my primary concern)
2. Provides me with a long axe (the Raven) to use in the easy to moderate terrain that leads to the steeper slopes

Arguments against a):
1. I’m unsure what to do with the Raven once I reach the steeps. Do I keep plunging its shaft into the snow while using the hybrid axe in mid dagger? Or will I find it necessary to use the Raven in dagger too, which I imagine would hurt my knuckles (straight shaft)? How much less security will the Raven provide in dagger, compared to the hybrid axe?

Arguments for/against b) are basically the inverse of the above.

Are both of these viable options? Or is one generally safer, and/or more enjoyable?

Some threads I found that were helpful, and perhaps hint at an answer but don't quite address it directly:
https://www.14ers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59312
https://www.14ers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61151
https://www.14ers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59039

I suppose I could bring all three axes and have the best of both worlds, but now we’re getting silly (right? ). I do tend to overpack.

[Wildernessjane]

For the objectives you mentioned, I would be totally comfortable with a straight shaft and hybrid (plan A). As for what to do with the straight shaft, I generally prefer to continue plunging the shaft whenever possible but you can also use it dagger style as well. I have multiple axes and sets of ice tools so I switch things up a lot but you should be fine with that setup unless you are on actual ice. For steep snow, my go-to is usually a hybrid and ultralight carbon ice tool.

[cottonmountaineering]

i really like the BD venom ice axe for an all arounder, i think generally speaking below 40 degrees i carry a whippet and above that my venom does everything up to some easy water ice climbing. i feel like the entire mountaineering community in colorado gets ice axes wrong in general, i feel like im taking crazy pills when i see people taking ice axes on 2" of snow over rock on mt bierstadt or whatever.

[Jorts]

Really depends on conditions. I generally opt for the hybrid. But I haven’t ice climbed in a decade and a heavy tool seems like overkill even on firm steep snow. If you want more security I’d pair the raven with a lightweight hybrid like the blue ice hummingbird. You can experiment with various grips to see what feels most secure.

*if you anticipate ice, take a tool.

[Rampaging Baloths]

I’ve been really happy with an either a BD raven/camp corsa for anything 35-45 degrees. Than above that steepness I bring and have thoroughly enjoyed my petzl Sum’tec. Generally that’s what works best for me. But some of my climbing buddies only climb with the raven style while others opt for other tools as well. It varies a lot.

Personally the more hybrid styles with the aggressive pick close to or even getting to an ice tool and often a little attachment to facilitate high dagger (or whatever they call it). It is something I really like and it allows me to go back and forth between high dagger and more classical plunging.

So I only use one axe until I get above 55 degrees though the style changes for me in there then afterwards Id start considering a second tool but I’ve never done anything like that.

[jscully205]

On steeper snow one hybrid tool and a normal ice axe will work, but it'll be less strenuous and you'll have more efficient movement with 2 shorter hybrid ice axes. I would go with either 2 gullys or 2 venoms or something of that class on higher angle terrain.

[supranihilest]

I only use a hybrid - Petzl Summit Evo. It's got just enough curve where it keeps my knuckles out of the snow in dagger position (something to keep in mind alongside how aggressive it is, especially if you almost exclusively wear non-waterproof liner gloves while snow climbing like I do), but not so much that I can't plunge the handle or use it as a cane on moderate snow slopes. I don't use poles so it doubles as a pole for me in those situations. For steep snow where I want an extra axe I bring an ice tool. It's heavier than a second axe but I'm cheap and don't want to buy a second axe when I already have two sets of ice tools. If I had a second hybrid I'd just bring two hybrids. Personally I think standard axes have little place in most situations where they'd be used as anything more than a cane and that a hybrid will cover a far wider range of potential scenarios, including those that a standard axe will. Thus, double hybrids > hybrid + standard in my opinion.

[pvnisher]

75cm straight shaft at the waist, light saber position, used as a cane or cooler looking trekking pole. Also good for chopping steps, like anyone has done that in the last 50 years.
65cm on the other hip, primary use.
50cm venom hammer, across chest. Just used for hammering pitons, or beating a nut into a crack to make your second really have a bad day.
Dual cassin X-all mountain strapped on the back of the pack.

One just never knows, gotta be ready.
Lol

[ekalina]

Thanks all. Sounds like there's a lot of variation out there. Since it's reasonable to pair a hybrid and traditional axe, I'll try that out first and report back. Is it spring yet?

pvnisher - It seems you will be easily recognizable if we ever cross paths in the mountains

[nyker]

For more aggressive ice/snow climbs, I used for years a Grivel Air Tech Evo (66cm) which has a curved upper third and straight lower shaft which works well as a hybrid long axe/ice tool.
For short steep (50*+) sections of ice I also have a 48cm axe with similar curvature which is good and fits on the back of the pack easier and more maneuverable in tight situations like that is found in northern NY ice flows with are often surrounded by spruce and fir limbs.
On Mount Hood, I could have used that short tool on/above the Pearly Gates but the 66cm axe worked pretty well on 95% of the mountain and ok in the chute there.

[SchralpTheGnar]

For the record you can climb all of those routes with the raven, been there done that type stuff, probably the only time I wished I had some extra tool was lambs slode in august, that was some bullet proof stuff