DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

[Trotter]

i have no intention of “respecting” their closure. mining companies can kiss my ass.

The non profit that built the trails you use for free to get to the summits, is also asking you to respect the closure. You want CFI to kiss your ass too?

[nunns]

A while ago it was decided that the town of Alma would lease the land from the owners, but I don't know what ever happened to that.

The town Is still leasing it - however the theory was that their governmental immunity protected them from a lawsuit. A recent lawsuit in CO Springs against the Air Force Academy resulted in a $7 million payout because of a bike accident on a trail that had washed out, and the owners didn't put up a sign or fence. So that kinda demonstrated that the governmental protection was inadequate.

So what happens when CDOT or a local Road and Bridge department doesn't fix a pot hole on say US 6 through town and someone falls on their bike? Close all roads to bikes everywhere? I feel bad the guy had a serious injury, but that's the risk you take. Ski areas have a very ski-area-generous set of laws protecting them. Hit a tree? Your fault. Hit a lift tower? Your fault. Unmarked rock on a trail? Too bad, your fault. The basic gist of it is that skiing has inherent risks and you should know that, not the ski areas' responsibilities to mark everything. Should be the same for hiking, biking and any other pursuit. Washed out trails are an inherent risk.

+1. I feel bad for the guy, but there are inherent risks in any physical activity.

Sean Nunn

[nunns]

I also wonder why it seems to be just these three which seem to have the problem? Except for 100 yards or so the entire route up Sherman is private as is most of the mountian. It doesn't seem that anyone cares though? Yet at least.

The summit of Lindsey is also private. So is the Angel of Shavano.

Not to mention there are some legitimate dangers on Sherman (abandoned mine shafts and collapsing mine "buildings". Part of what makes it a fun mountain. You just have to be smart enough to keep your safe distance from those things.

Sean Nunn

[SteveBonowski]

As a near 39 year conservation activist with Colorado Mountain Club, and also a lot of time with CFI, I can say I've almost made a "career" out of working on L/B/D issues, beginning in 2004. I'm also involved now.

As someone noted, there is a broad based stakeholder group interested in working with the property owners (it's more than Earth Energy Resources) to provide a permanent solution. The original small group has been meeting with the property owners for about two years and expanded earlier this year.

Regarding the property owners being concerned about LNT, CMC did a field trip last August with them. There was litter, human waste, dog poop bags, and people going everywhere off trail. Blame some of it on COVID which brought people out into the hills when they couldn't go to Red Rocks, Coors Field, or other places; people who didn't know climbing etiquette.

It will eventually get worked out. But the job will be harder if people aren't willing to respect the closures.

[justiner]

Has there been a SAR mission in recent memory because a 14er hiker came upon old mining site so deleterious as to become injured and require assistance? I hear of the threat of mine shafts caving in all the time when this group of mountains come up, but never any evidence that this has happened to a hiker. I've heard plenty of people just getting injured hiking it. Or if you hiked Bartlett, all bets are off and no one is going to have sympathy from rockfall happening b/c of mining activity - that's a pretty big "duh".

I had a buddy that grew up in Leadville in the 80's and the afterschool activity was, "try not to die in a mining shaft", but they really had to work to get into stupid trouble.

Anyways, the Mining Act sucks and we're still paying the price for it. The environment is paying the price for it, and these mining claim owners are paying less a year to hold onto the land then I pay for health insurance for a month? The $176 in paperwork fees - that's a true number?



Also Scott, why do you say the Angel of Shavano is on PP? The summit area is and land a little to the south - that's owned by CFI, but it's news to me that the Angel of Shavano itself is. Caltopo doesn't show any PP.

[EigenDylan]

Maybe Deb Haaland can go to the CEO's house and punch them in the face.

You dont get to threaten violence when people don't do what you want them to and encouraging others to break the law is never ok.

To be clear, I said this because I thought it was funny, not because I want the secretary of the interior to punch some guy in the face. It is curious how you condemn this hypothetical act of violence, but do not condemn the existing threat violence implicit in putting up a no trespassing sign. What is that sign other than a threat that the police will harass/arrest you if you walk on those summits? If we condemn violence against the institution of private land, surely we must also condemn violence in defense of it. The law is not the end all be all of morality. Every time you drive your car above the speed limit, you are breaking the law. Yet, it is socially acceptable basically everywhere. I personally respect the wishes of the CFI because of all the amazing work they have done to improve trail conditions and access to the 14ers. However, the institution of private land in america was founded on the genocide of indigenous people, and in its current form threatens to fence off and destroy nature for the profit or enjoyment of the wealthy few. For that reason, I think we shouldn't respect private land in general, and trespassing is an act of resistance. These peaks are already a de facto public space. Why should one company or a few people have control over a space used by thousands just because someone drew some lines on a map 100 years ago?

[cottonmountaineering]

Has there been a SAR mission in recent memory because a 14er hiker came upon old mining site so deleterious as to become injured and require assistance? I hear of the threat of mine shafts caving in all the time when this group of mountains come up, but never any evidence that this has happened to a hiker. I've heard plenty of people just getting injured hiking it. Or if you hiked Bartlett, all bets are off and no one is going to have sympathy from rockfall happening b/c of mining activity - that's a pretty big "duh".

I had a buddy that grew up in Leadville in the 80's and the afterschool activity was, "try not to die in a mining shaft", but they really had to work to get into stupid trouble.

Anyways, the Mining Act sucks and we're still paying the price for it. The environment is paying the price for it, and these mining claim owners are paying less a year to hold onto the land then I pay for health insurance for a month? The $176 in paperwork fees - that's a true number?



Also Scott, why do you say the Angel of Shavano is on PP? The summit area is and land a little to the south - that's owned by CFI, but it's news to me that the Angel of Shavano itself is. Caltopo doesn't show any PP.

all the mining claim laws seem antiquated with so much gray area, there is a market for real estate specialists help build vacation homes on claims

the reality is the government owns the surface and people are circumventing the spirit of the law. people just sitting on these huge tracts of land, not mining anything, and fencing it off so its "theirs" for a couple hundred bucks per year, its a shame

[noob_hiker]

Isn't Bartlett close to not being a 13er? I good portion of that mountain was chopped off last I checked.

It may very well no longer be ranked because it is losing elevation as Freeport and climax mine remove the base of it causing subsidence. It is still well over 13k. Bartlett is being used (and destroyed, but that's another issue), and it's damn dangerous to go cavorting around near an active industrial mining and milling operation. The groups / individuals who "own" Democrat/Lincoln/Gross, or others who own Culebra, aren't using them, and there's no more hazard going up there than other areas of national forest.

On an unrelated note, does anyone know of other peaks that have lost or gained 13er/14er status due to environment/act of God etc etc.

[jibler]

Eminent Domain'd


personally I think areas like this don't need to be in private ownership period.

and tack Culebra onto that list too.


what is the "fair market value" for a bunch of defunct abandoned mines?? I think the state of colorado can foot that bill easily.

[justiner]

On an unrelated note, does anyone know of other peaks that have lost or gained 13er/14er status due to environment/act of God etc etc.

Well to be pedantic, all of them used to be both a lot lower, and a lot higher, if you think in geological time

The biggest example of "geologic time includes now" for 13ers may be Lizard Head, which supposedly had a summit that crumbled off. Challengers do abound, such as Hallett Peak, who's Northcutt-Carter Route was ripped off the wall due to rockfall.

As for noteworthy features on a mountain, the cross on Mont of the Holy Cross seems to have bee much... crossier, but now looks a little imperfect. I somewhat believe this was a ye olde Photoshop job in the original photo/painting and it's been the way it's been since westerners have looked at it, since people still 'shop the cross to be straighter.

Outing+mag+5.jpg (196.4 KiB) Viewed 2478 times

[Chicago Transplant]

On an unrelated note, does anyone know of other peaks that have lost or gained 13er/14er status due to environment/act of God etc etc.

Here's a 12er that has been slowing caving in. Also a moly mine and I am pretty sure has the same owner as Bartlett.
https://listsofjohn.com/peak/1491

[Dayute]

Maybe Deb Haaland can go to the CEO's house and punch them in the face.

You dont get to threaten violence when people don't do what you want them to and encouraging others to break the law is never ok.

To be clear, I said this because I thought it was funny, not because I want the secretary of the interior to punch some guy in the face. It is curious how you condemn this hypothetical act of violence, but do not condemn the existing threat violence implicit in putting up a no trespassing sign. What is that sign other than a threat that the police will harass/arrest you if you walk on those summits? If we condemn violence against the institution of private land, surely we must also condemn violence in defense of it. The law is not the end all be all of morality. Every time you drive your car above the speed limit, you are breaking the law. Yet, it is socially acceptable basically everywhere. I personally respect the wishes of the CFI because of all the amazing work they have done to improve trail conditions and access to the 14ers. However, the institution of private land in america was founded on the genocide of indigenous people, and in its current form threatens to fence off and destroy nature for the profit or enjoyment of the wealthy few. For that reason, I think we shouldn't respect private land in general, and trespassing is an act of resistance. These peaks are already a de facto public space. Why should one company or a few people have control over a space used by thousands just because someone drew some lines on a map 100 years ago?

I dont think anyone is interested in your twisted version of morality that allows you to do whatever you want. Inherent violence in putting up a sign? Just nonsense. Trespassing isnt an act of resistance, it is a crime. I dont care if you were joking you still called for violence. I like this website and I dont want to see it shut down because someone wants to use it as their personal platform to promote criminal activity.