Threads related to Colorado mountaineering accidents but please keep it civil and respectful. Friends and relatives of fallen climbers will be reading these posts.
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Please be respectful when posting - family and friends of fallen climbers might be reading this forum.
Any sign that is put in needs to be done in a manner so that it's more trouble than it's worth to be taken out. (And the best place for the sign is off the ridge and only visible to people who have erroneously decided they've found the easiest way down.) You've seen the opinions on signage, and all it takes is one person to decide that a sign isn't warranted. Years ago peak registers disappeared on the 14ers. While a good number of people liked signing them, all it takes is one person to vote that peak registers shouldn't be on summits, and they had the most important vote in the matter.
Any sign that is put in needs to be done in a manner so that it's more trouble than it's worth to be taken out. (And the best place for the sign is off the ridge and only visible to people who have erroneously decided they've found the easiest way down.) You've seen the opinions on signage, and all it takes is one person to decide that a sign isn't warranted. Years ago peak registers disappeared on the 14ers. While a good number of people liked signing them, all it takes is one person to vote that peak registers shouldn't be on summits, and they had the most important vote in the matter.
Agreed. It needs to be as "official" looking as possible in order for people to leave it alone and respect it. That's just how us humans are. Not to mention, it needs to be durable and be able to withstand the elements for a long time...it's not actually as simple to make as one might think.
Cut out metal sign similar to Crestone Needle's reading " * CLIFFS AHEAD ! " and with * being a stick figure falling or skull-n-crossbones. Down enough so you'd overlook it staying on standard, but couldn't miss it if you started down and could still re-ascend. Staked or hanging from a cable between two bolts which might hold up better to snow or falling rock. Then again, maybe high enough so you can read it without venturing down to see what it says.
People skip info on the 'net and TH kiosks all the time, but signs stand out and let's any leery partner say "Can't you see the #$%@ sign!" Even then, people hop signed fences and barriers to get to water's edge by waterfalls, slip, and ...
Cut out metal sign similar to Crestone Needle's reading " * CLIFFS AHEAD ! " and with * being a stick figure falling or skull-n-crossbones. Down enough so you'd overlook it staying on standard, but couldn't miss it if you started down and could still re-ascend.
I think this would be perfect, TallGrass.
I was adamantly against signs on our 14ers when this topic had been debated previously, and I think it's interesting that "Capitol's Death Route" wouldn't have made many lists of places needing signs a month ago. In light of the recent fatalities, however, I have changed my opinion, at least in this case. These accidents were so tragic it's hard to not be affected by them.
I'm not in favor of trying to save climbers from themselves...there's an inherent risk associated with any type of mountaineering that we accept, and even welcome. But this sign wouldn't be for "those" climbers. Anyone who was even remotely prepared to climb Capitol would already know you couldn't descend via that gully. The sign would be for someone who shouldn't be up there to begin with...someone who needs help, and doesn't know it yet.
Somewhat of a Prick wrote:A part of the problem is people going down this route never visit this site or summitpost to start with, in my opinion.
I agree. If they read the route description (and trip reports) here they would realize they must return to K2.
If some people ever access this website, I think that it would be beneficial to them if you insert one or two pictures posted by Scott P below what you already warned in the route description like "On your descent, you MUST return via the same route from K2 - do not try to take a shortcut to Capitol Lake because all of the terrain ends in serious cliffs." A picture is worth a thousand words. That way, it will certainly help save some lives.
+1
I couldn't agree more. Adding these 2 pics into the route description could only help and wouldn't be that time consuming.
If these views of the misleading forming trail could be seen here before being seen in real life it may save someone. Fully worth 10 mins of route description altering in my mind, Bill.
"I don't think you fully understand the consequences of your pickle thievery" - Classic summit conversation
After reading through this thread a few times, I have to ask...
Why are people so against posting a sign at the top of this gully?
I absolutely love the backcountry and understand that people get out there for the solidarity. But how does seeing 1 sign the size of a computer screen ruin that? Especially when we all know this sign has a chance to save a life. It's not like we are asking to put a neon blinking sign at the top that is blasting music saying "Do not go this way".
Psemin42 wrote:After reading through this thread a few times, I have to ask...
Why are people so against posting a sign at the top of this gully?
I absolutely love the backcountry and understand that people get out there for the solidarity. But how does seeing 1 sign the size of a computer screen ruin that? Especially when we all know this sign has a chance to save a life. It's not like we are asking to put a neon blinking sign at the top that is blasting music saying "Do not go this way".
Psemin42 wrote:After reading through this thread a few times, I have to ask...
Why are people so against posting a sign at the top of this gully?
I absolutely love the backcountry and understand that people get out there for the solidarity. But how does seeing 1 sign the size of a computer screen ruin that? Especially when we all know this sign has a chance to save a life. It's not like we are asking to put a neon blinking sign at the top that is blasting music saying "Do not go this way".
You might want to ask the people who were opposed to putting one small arrow on a rock to keep people out of the dangerous gully on Crestone Needle.
I don't think we ought to have signs every 100 yards telling people where to go and what to do. Part of the lure of the back country is its remoteness from civilization and its unspoiled nature. Like everything else though, there needs to be a balance. Where one small sign can prevent someone's death, safety takes precedent over "spoiling" the wilderness.
"Thy righteousness is like the great mountains."
Psalm 36:6
