Dec 16th, Kelso Mountain Avalanche - questions

[Jorts]

Close call for a couple snowshoers:

https://avalanche.state.co.us/report/0f ... 2f41121e1e

[SkaredShtles]

Close call for a couple snowshoers:

https://avalanche.state.co.us/report/0f ... 2f41121e1e

Excellent illustration of things being discussed in this thread.

[DaveLanders]

After analyzing the terrain and snowpack as best I can, both pre-trip and out in the field, I like to ask myself a simple question: Am I willing to bet my life that I have gotten this right? If the answer is no, then it's time for a new plan.

[susanjoypaul]

After analyzing the terrain and snowpack as best I can, both pre-trip and out in the field, I like to ask myself a simple question: Am I willing to bet my life that I have gotten this right? If the answer is no, then it's time for a new plan.

Along the same lines, the best advice I ever got about traveling in avalanche terrain is that if you wouldn't do the hike without your beacon, probe, and shovel, then you shouldn't do it at all.

I feel the same way about PLBs and SPOTs.

[justiner]

Close call for a couple snowshoers:

https://avalanche.state.co.us/report/0f ... 2f41121e1e

Ah -- I see now the avy forecast (or a link to it) for that day. That's a powerful feature (history of forecasts). I didn't see that on the Kelso report:

https://avalanche.state.co.us/report/be ... 482a79318e

[Jorts]

Along the same lines, the best advice I ever got about traveling in avalanche terrain is that if you wouldn't do the hike without your beacon, probe, and shovel, then you shouldn't do it at all.

I feel the same way about PLBs and SPOTs.

So do you only drive on roads where you wouldn't need a seatbelt too?

[Bean]

Along the same lines, the best advice I ever got about traveling in avalanche terrain is that if you wouldn't do the hike without your beacon, probe, and shovel, then you shouldn't do it at all.

I feel the same way about PLBs and SPOTs.

So do you only drive on roads where you wouldn't need a seatbelt too?

If the determining factor of whether or not you'd cross a slope is "I've got a beacon on and trust my partner to dig me out before I die" it's probably worth reconsidering crossing that slope.

[Roca]

So for the slope in question, when there is snow and avalanche risk (ie all winter and well into the spring), how do we encourage people to leave the trail and where do they go?

Or do we just keep letting people get caught and keep saying they should have been educated, looked at the forecast, chose a different route, worn avy gear, and spread out?

[rijaca]

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

[Chicago Transplant]

So for the slope in question, when there is snow and avalanche risk (ie all winter and well into the spring), how do we encourage people to leave the trail and where do they go?

Or do we just keep letting people get caught and keep saying they should have been educated, looked at the forecast, chose a different route, worn avy gear, and spread out?

People don't really do as much research before a hike. Sure people on this forum might, but the general population not so much. The signage option would help educate people, there are other traps that have or have had signs in the past such as don't go down the west ridge of Quandary or don't drop down Jennings Creek from the Shav/Tab saddle. I don't remember seeing the one on Big Q last time I was up it, at least nothing at the summit?

Anyway, people are also lazy and go where the trench is. People who know the route is dangerous that take it early season should put in a bypass trench even when the slope is not yet loaded, and then people need to keep reinforcing it so that breaking trail under the avy slope is less appealing than following a trench around. Unfortunately the popularity of these peaks means lots of people are just following the summer trail when there is less snow and those foot prints are what everyone follows the next storm, and the next etc until the trench goes right under the avy slope and the bypass requires postholing. I have done these or Kelso in early December and put in the bypass but who knows if anyone followed it after?

[SkaredShtles]

Or do we just keep letting people get caught and keep saying they should have been educated, looked at the forecast, chose a different route, worn avy gear, and spread out?

Seems reasonable.

[justiner]

Or do we just keep letting people get caught and keep saying they should have been educated, looked at the forecast, chose a different route, worn avy gear, and spread out?

I'm not against signs. I can understand there is sort of a setup: trailhead right off the Interstate, easy road to the summer trailhead, a trail that's most likely seen some traffic even in Winter, leading up to -- in Summer -- easy peaks (and maybe someone is using an app like AllTrails rather than looking at local conditions...). So OK: at what point is it that people are supposed to take responsibility for their own actions? (as I muse...). I'd love it if it was embedded into the very fabric of hiking the idea that, "hiking in the Winter is another animal altogether", but we can't rely on miracles.

Just the problem with signs is that there is no guarantee anyone is going to read them -- they're not a panacea. People still get in trouble on the West Ridge of Quandary despite the sign. Hell, people get in trouble just going UP to the summer trailhead in Spring, despite the sign saying don't try. What do they think? "The sign does not apply to me".