Marking Crestone Needle Gully Crossover

[Navigaiter]

Some paint in strategic spots isn't going to push it over the edge. But it might prevent you from being part of a rescue party. And a few decades ago, being part of the rescue party wasn't until more SAR arrived, it was more likely for the duration. I agree all our modern aids have insulated people from realizing that in an instant they can be just as screwed as they would have been a 100 years ago with a misstep.

I completely understand where you're coming from, but it all comes back to where the lines are drawn. Painting the route will just push the line a little further, and then we end up with a justification people may use to paint other routes...and others. It doesn't just end there unfortunately.

The same type of thinking now has permanently damaged at least the top of two 14ers with plaques.

I, personally, just can't justify it, even in light of a death.

[TomPierce]

I've done the standard descent twice, but have a somewhat unique perspective in that I've never climbed up the standard route. Both of my ascents of the Needle were up the Ellingwood Arete, then down the standard route. I mention that not to toot a horn, but rather to point out that even without having climbed up the descent route, descending off the Needle's standard descent just isn't all that hard, even back in the 90's (I also went down the Needle a few years back, no huge difference that I recall). I'd glanced at Roach's description beforehand to learn the general direction down, then just used route finding experience to get down. Just wasn't hard, or even all that memorable. With the advent of internet TR's with copious photos, even easier. If you take the wrong path and get cliffed out, well duh, go back up to your last on-route point and reassess. If your descent drifts into 4th/5th class terrain, you're obviously off route. Don't keep going to compound the error, climb back up and reassess. This is so basic I'm muttering to myself that it's silly to type the obvious.

That's the micro issue. As to the macro issue, I am in the no marking/leave no trace camp, but I'm OK with the occasional cairn. I agree with Sean that by the time you're doing the sporty peaks, you should have laid a foundation in basic mountaineering which includes route finding. Again, the Needle descent isn't a route finding test piece, just mountaineering vs. hiking. I fully realize it's the classic fallacy of a slippery slope argument, but if that descent merits glow in the dark arrows, I can think of a lot of other candidates for dumbed-down mountaineering. Build skills, develop mountaineering (vs. hiking) intuition, use your judgment.

And accept that climbing is occasionally dangerous, people die even when they are squarely on route.

Just my opinions.

-Tom

[SoCool]

The overshoot where people miss the gully crossing has apparent traffic wear, thus leading more people the wrong way.

This is the main reason people continue down the wrong gully, even those that are ascending and descending the same route.

Which brings us back to the slippery slope: there are countless places like this on our 14'ers where false paths lead people astray. We can't just start signing all of them. Personally, I think just one very big cairn there would solve everything.

[polar]

I think we should bolt all routes class 3 and above with a via ferrata. It's safer than merely marking the turn off, and we really need more via ferrata in the US.

[XterraRob]

Totally against marking up the mountains beyond cairns. If you aren't competent enough to navigate them, then you shouldn't be up there.

[12ersRule]

Totally against marking up the mountains beyond cairns. If you aren't competent enough to navigate them, then you shouldn't be up there.

Minivan Bob is so hardcore!

[CHeimCO]

Is there really such a large difference between cairns and painted markings? I view cairns has helpful route markers left by previous (and polite) hikers/mountaineers. They are our way, as a community, of looking out for one another and helping others find the route. Lots of us, help maintain routes and stack rocks, block wrong paths, pick up trash, help a fellow hiker out.... while we are out enjoying the mountains. Yes, paint is certainly more permanent; but could it replace a cairn that is built year after year? Is it that much more permanent? ... Or is it about aesthetics?

[DArcyS]

Plenty of people get into the fourteeners because they're goal oriented but they're not true mountaineers or climbers. Driven by a little obsessive compulsiveness and their goal to finish the fourteeners, many people will climb above their ability. I find nothing wrong with helping these people out, including a little paint here and there. For those who think this diminishes the standards of mountaineering, the Ellingwood Arete awaits. Indeed, my guess is that the best climbers look for routes to test their skills on something other than the standard summer routes on the fourteeners. As for a painted marking diminishing one's wilderness experience, the days of a wilderness experience on a fourteener in the summer are long gone.

[DArcyS]

Personally, I think just one very big cairn there would solve everything.

I would agree, except you gotta think at least one person would take offense and toss it down the mountain rock-by-rock.

[Navigaiter]

As for a painted marking diminishing one's wilderness experience, the days of a wilderness experience on a fourteener in the summer are long gone.

Respectfully, this isn't about whether or not it diminishes the wilderness experience. It's entirely about our full responsibility to consciously make as little impact on a fragile environment as possible.

[AlexeyD]

Plenty of people get into the fourteeners because they're goal oriented but they're not true mountaineers or climbers.

And yet, they ARE mountaineering, whether they know this or not. This is the problem! The mountains don't care why people are climbing them. The hazards they present are an objective reality that applies to everyone regardless of what they call themselves, why they are there, or how much experience they have. Accidents can happen to anyone and everyone, regardless of experience and ability (as the recent tragedy shows), but to me, what you call "helping those folks out" only cements the notion that climbing 14ers is just a ticklist to be completed, rather than a serious, committing, and potentially dangerous activity that requires a lot of preparation, focus, and sometimes just plain luck.

Sure, you can make a "permanent" marker somewhere. Maybe even in this particular, single instance it's a good idea. I just hope "those folks" that you talk about don't interpret it to somehow mean that the mountain just got "safe".

[AnnaG22]

Plenty of people get into the fourteeners because they're goal oriented but they're not true mountaineers or climbers.

And yet, they ARE mountaineering, whether they know this or not. This is the problem! The mountains don't care why people are climbing them. The hazards they present are an objective reality that applies to everyone regardless of what they call themselves, why they are there, or how much experience they have. Accidents can happen to anyone and everyone, regardless of experience and ability (as the recent tragedy shows), but to me, what you call "helping those folks out" only cements the notion that climbing 14ers is just a ticklist to be completed, rather than a serious, committing, and potentially dangerous activity that requires a lot of preparation, focus, and sometimes just plain luck.

Sure, you can make a "permanent" marker somewhere. Maybe even in this particular, single instance it's a good idea. I just hope "those folks" that you talk about don't interpret it to somehow mean that the mountain just got "safe".

^this. A friend of mine just did Longs and said to me afterward "it kind of drove home to me that people can die trying to finish the 14ers." 14ers certainly aren't the most dangerous peaks in the state, let alone the country, but they ARE dangerous...and I'd wager there's a solid chunk of folks working on "the list" that may not have reflected on the fact that they could die pursuing it. As has been previously stated, a lot of people are doing this purely "for fun" and for them, fun doesn't include logistics or skill progressions. I know that for me, a lot of the fun IS the logistics and skill progression, but I know that for others those things are the antithesis of fun.

I don't have the authority of many of the folks commenting on this thread, but I tend to lean toward Shawn's POV... it SUCKS when people die. and yeah, we want as few people to die in the mountains as possible. but I think that painting peaks and making them seem easier will increase injuries and mistakes due to the perceived accessibility rather than decreasing the danger.

This is a complicated issue. But discussions like this are incredibly valuable and I love reading these conversations. I wish we could facilitate more conversations like this over on the FB page.