Thoughts on mountaineering boots for winter 14ers?

[SchralpTheGnar]

I once rented a pair of koflach degrees for an overnight Jan trip attempt up longs and I must say they were kind of nice.

[jfm3]

Just wear whatever you think will be warm and burly enough. There is no boot police that will invalidate your summit if you wear boots that are too extreme or not extreme enough.

This guy went up Manaslu in La Sportiva Cyklons last year, so he's already cooler than any of us will ever be: https://www.lasportivausa.com/blog/ty-a ... nMVG-4B_0A.

[KState14er]

For me, this comes down to one simple question:
1) Do I expect to need crampons?
The answer to that is determined by a simple corollary question:
1b) Do I expect to climb or cross any snow steep enough in a location where a fall could be fatal?

If 1b is "yes" then 1 is automatically "yes" in my book now.

This stems from two simple, yet powerful experiences:
A) Doing Longs in a high snow year with strap-on crampons that kicked off partway across a steep slope. https://www.14ers.com/php14ers/triprepo ... m=tripmine
B) On a different occasion, taking a fall that led to 6 stitches on my left arm because I was too lazy/arrogant/stupid to put on traction when I should have. https://www.14ers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63563

With real crampons clamped onto proper mountaineering boots (Nepal Cubes, in my case) I have tried as hard as I could to intentionally attempt to knock them off and was completely unable to do so. As a result, I now have the confidence to entrust my life to this gear on steep, firm snow.

People who are skilled mountaineers probably don't feel the need for crampons in all the locations that I do. Maybe it's true that some places I now use them, they would be considered overkill by a real mountaineer. I don't care.

To me, having already made one stupid decision that took me to the ER, I don't want a memorial thread popping up on this site where an armchair quarterback opines "well if the dude used more than microspikes, maybe he'd still be alive..."

I'm sorry, but to me it sure looks a lot like arrogant machoism when people downplay using proper safety equipment in the mountains and, yes, this is coming from a guy who often doesn't use as much safety equipment in the mountains as others (I do unroped class 5 past other people's belay anchors, for example).

But I will never talk down to people who use greater safety measures than I do, be it using ropes, crampons or whatever (and please don't hesitate to call me out if you see me doing so).

I really, really passionately hate the attitude that often creeps out in this site where people puff out their chests because they don't need xyz for these "easy Colorado mountains." Can you do every route in Colorado without ropes or crampons or whatever? Great! I'll be happy to take a sharpie and write "bad ass" on your butt. But please let's stop any stupid, arrogant talk that xyz is not needed in Colorado. What's needed in Colorado is whatever a given person feels is most likely to allow them to enjoy their passion for the mountains while giving them the greatest chance possible of coming back alive at the end of the day. End rant.

Lastly, as far as blisters and such, I finally found that with the right pair of boots (La Sportiva Nepal Cubes, in my case), and proper technique in tying them (yes, there are simple techniques for tying boots that help lock your heels in place and prevent blisters) that I no longer have any problems with my feet even hiking 20 miles in them, which is great because I already carry too much weight in winter to want the weight of an extra pair of footwear.

One of the best messages ever on this site.
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000

[Wildernessjane]

I'm sorry, but to me it sure looks a lot like arrogant machoism when people downplay using proper safety equipment in the mountains and, yes, this is coming from a guy who often doesn't use as much safety equipment in the mountains as others (I do unroped class 5 past other people's belay anchors, for example).

But I will never talk down to people who use greater safety measures than I do, be it using ropes, crampons or whatever (and please don't hesitate to call me out if you see me doing so).

I really, really passionately hate the attitude that often creeps out in this site where people puff out their chests because they don't need xyz for these "easy Colorado mountains." Can you do every route in Colorado without ropes or crampons or whatever? Great! I'll be happy to take a sharpie and write "bad ass" on your butt. But please let's stop any stupid, arrogant talk that xyz is not needed in Colorado. What's needed in Colorado is whatever a given person feels is most likely to allow them to enjoy their passion for the mountains while giving them the greatest chance possible of coming back alive at the end of the day. End rant.

Lastly, as far as blisters and such, I finally found that with the right pair of boots (La Sportiva Nepal Cubes, in my case), and proper technique in tying them (yes, there are simple techniques for tying boots that help lock your heels in place and prevent blisters) that I no longer have any problems with my feet even hiking 20 miles in them, which is great because I already carry too much weight in winter to want the weight of an extra pair of footwear.

Well said. I could not agree with you more.

[cottonmountaineering]

Just wear whatever you think will be warm and burly enough. There is no boot police that will invalidate your summit if you wear boots that are too extreme or not extreme enough.

This guy went up Manaslu in La Sportiva Cyklons last year, so he's already cooler than any of us will ever be: https://www.lasportivausa.com/blog/ty-a ... nMVG-4B_0A.

that is awesome

[nyker]

I've heard many different opinions on the use of mountaineering boots for winter 14ers so i'd like to hear what yall think.

You'll have many different opinions as there as many different personalities and uses.

It depends on the climb, conditions and how your feet run (on the cooler side or warmer side). I hear many people talk about how their feet sweat in this shoe or that shoe. Sounds like a sock error, but using the right sock combination I've never had sweaty feet hiking no matter how warm or cold but have had cold feet.

If you are hiking up a shorter 14er in thin early season snow when temps are mild you probably can get by with thinner footwear with less insulation, otherwise you'll need a better proper insulated waterproof boot; some of the shoe decision will be dictated by whether you need a real crampon or not and thus welts on the boots. I've used real crampons on trailrunners, but they are not that secure and are good for brief traversing or packed trail walking, not 50 degree couloir climbs or glacier climbs or postholing in Spring mush. If there are spots of mild slopes of packed snow or ice on an otherwise dry route, you can probably get by with trailrunners and microspikes, otherwise plan on wearing a regular boot. A good medium weight mountaineering boot like the old LS Trango EVOs (Scarpa makes one similar) with welts worked well on most of my snow climbs, including Rainier (in summer), Mt Hood (early Spring) and a bunch of early-mid-Spring snow climbs in CO. With that said, on the PNW mountains many were using plastic boots.

I've used Nepals and Nepal Cubes in cooler/higher conditions (Mexico volcanoes) and a couple ADK peaks when it was very snow and cold (negative temps) - trailrunners have no place on these peaks in winter. Note though on PNW peaks, I added a warmer insole and wore thicker socks which helped make medium weight boots climb warmer but retain flexibility and ease of "feel" that plastics or Nepals lacked. Also, if you have snowshoes you won't posthole as deep so might be warmer on average...

[Monster5]

Just the semi-annual plug for Kahtoola KTS steel crampons to solve all of these non full shank winter boot/ strap crampon traction woes. A comfy, insulated boot and Kahtoolas will serve most people well on 90% of the standard winter 14er routes.

And to clear the allegations before the next election cycle, I never suggested Blizzards would be adequate for Jagged, Wham, or Capitol in winter.

[Wildernessjane]

Just the semi-annual plug for Kahtoola KTS steel crampons to solve all of these non full shank winter boot/ strap crampon traction woes. A comfy, insulated boot and Kahtoolas will serve most people well on 90% of the standard winter 14er routes.

These are 50% off right now at REI (small/medium size only).

[supranihilest]

Get 'em while you can where you can, 'cause the Blizzard's aren't available on the La Sportiva website. You'll have to "settle" with the Cyklon Cross GTX.

Great, I totally wasn't about to buy like three pair to replace the ones I have with a hole in the toe. Ugh.

[daway8]

Just the semi-annual plug for Kahtoola KTS steel crampons to solve all of these non full shank winter boot/ strap crampon traction woes. A comfy, insulated boot and Kahtoolas will serve most people well on 90% of the standard winter 14er routes.

And to clear the allegations before the next election cycle, I never suggested Blizzards would be adequate for Jagged, Wham, or Capitol in winter.

Nope, been there, tried that. I'll grant that those do at least stay on your feet better than some others, but the crampon points are so puny that they're not all that much of a step up from microspikes and utterly worthless for front-pointing.

Maybe if you always only encountered perfect snow conditions, where the snow is firm with just a little bit of give, then you could get by with these - but in those cases you could also generally get by with kicking steps.

Sorry, but to say something works for "90% of the standard winter 14er routes" is not how snow works. 10 people can do the same exact route and find 10 very different sets of conditions. One day you find ice, the next time it's covered in crunchy snow and the next time it's bulletproof snow that will laugh as your Kahtoolas try to bite into it.

Traction needs are not based so much on the route as the condition of the snow on a given day, which varies dramatically throughout the winter.

If you're fine with the Kahtoolas, great. But I would caution anyone reading this and trying to figure out what gear to get in order to get into winter 14ers that most people would not be comfortable on many routes with Kahtoola KTS steel crampons. You're greatly reducing your safety margin by using those, in my opinion.

[Monster5]

This is ridiculous, Daway. There is no need to front point on class 1 - 3 up to moderate snow, which is in fact 90% of standard route winter 14ers, though appreciate the revelation that conditions and difficulty may vary.

I get that you've had a couple incidents. The vast majority of bodies I've seen have been due to slips on snow, and I've had partners in lengthy comas and multi-year partial recoveries due to lack of crampons. I get it. I'm not belittling traction. But claiming that mountaineering boots and semi/full auto crampons are the go to for the broader 14er difficulty level is just silly. That, to me, sounds like gear is being used to compensate for lack of technique and experience.

[daway8]

...That, to me, sounds like gear is being used to compensate for lack of technique and experience.

Perhaps so, I freely admit I don't have nearly as much experience as many people on this site. I use the gear that allows me to have confidence.

But I'm very surprised, given the experiences you just described living through, that you would downplay the use of anything more than the Kahtoolas you described. Perhaps if I learned the techniques that you apparently know, I would be confident with just those. But to me it sounds like you're making yourself work a lot harder to compensate for not having good gear.

Anyways, we can agree to disagree on the details. Seems we both recognize and agree that appropriate traction can be a lifesaver, we just have different opinions on what qualifies as appropriate. I only spoke up because I wanted anyone with even less experience than me who might be reading to know that there are people who don't feel safe with your recommended traction.

Now people have heard both viewpoints and can decide for themselves.