Colorado Wolves Reintroduction

[LURE]

Reducation of deer/elk populations actually makes the remaining population much stronger. Less mouths to feed on the remaining habitat. We already know that in RMNP overpopulation of Elk has definitely led to overgrazed habitat.

well sure. but only if areas are overpopulated. not a lot of those places in the state. many that are on decline due to, again, habitat fragmentation and destruction from winter range development and the destruction of migration corridors. remember winter range is the primary driver and sustainer of ungulate populations, there is almost no single other greater factor.

there are plenty of Data Analysis Units in the state that over objective, but over objective does not equate to an overpopulation of animals that are suffering from too many of themselves. population objectives are combination of many things including social tolerances, habitat availability, and habitat competition with other species, among other things. what source do you have that says elk are overpopulated in the park? i can find no such information. at times, yes, the objective is breached and they cull. but RMNP does not have a runaway elk overpopulation problem leading to habitat crises that only wolves can solve.

the most recent info i can find from the parks website: https://www.nps.gov/romo/learn/manageme ... tation.htm

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and by what measure is it even relevant? wolves will not be released on that side of the divide or in the park itself. and sure, they'll probably sneak over there at some point in the future.

[Iguru]

In response to what Lure said about some the effects of introducing wolves into Colorado will bring, some of those things are likely the point. There are plenty in the pro-wolf crowd that are actually just anti-rural, anti-ranching, anti-hunting, pro-government administration and supporting wolves is a useful avenue towards their goals. If the wolves upset Republicans, harm livestock operations and curtail deer and elk populations to the point that hunting licenses are reduced or even eliminated, all the better. Politics is about power, not coming together to achieve common goals.

yes, these people exist, absolutely. the groups that organize and fund ballot initiatives can often have agendas that go much deeper. as conspiracy as it may sound, it is the reality. do the voters have such deep rooted and organized agendas? no, they don't, maybe some do and hope for such things, and they have that right. But i think such folks are a minority and that's more to my point.

wildlife politics in washington are proven evidence of that. a canary in the coal mine, if you will. perhaps, even, a look into the future in states like colorado - a future of cratered deer and elk populations, abundant predators and limited or no predator management, and a stated effort to deemphasize hunting from the very agency that oversees the state's wildlife and manages hunting. this is not me conflating the very presence of wolves with that future, the issue is very complex and multi pronged in washington, no doubt.

so here we are now, in the situation we're in. at the end of the day we all love wild places and wildlife and have big passions for preserving and conserving - there is common ground to be found here amongst the residents of this state on this.

Cratered deer and elk populations? Not gonna happen.
Abundant predators and limited or no predator management? Not gonna happen.
Don't conflate the very presence of wolves with that future you describe.

[LURE]

Cratered deer and elk populations? Not gonna happen.
Abundant predators and limited or no predator management? Not gonna happen.
Don't conflate the very presence of wolves with that future you describe.

i'm not conflating it with wolves. so please to don't claim such. sow your division elsewhere so a real conversation can be had or add something meaningful to the discussion.

just making note of what's going on elsewhere. changing agendas and priorities of wildlife commissions coupled with and spurred by rapidly changing demographics, population increases, and huge amounts of development have incredibly large affects on wildlife populations and how they end up being managed. that's just the reality right there, full stop. wolves aren't what do that. but, in my opinioin, how they came to be getting reintroduced, via ballot, and the ideologies and falsities being pushed by both sides on this issue, make them a canary in the coal mine for how the state may be headed in future methods of wildlife management.

[markf]

Have any ranchers or farmers in the US tried using dogs to keep predators away from their livestock? Farmers in the Pyrenees have gone back to using dogs to keep wolves and bears away from their cattle and sheep, and from what I've been told it's been successful. There are signs all over the Pyrenees warning hikers to be careful around the sheep dogs (they're called "patou"), describing what they do and explaining how to act around them.

Dogs are used in the San Juan range to protect sheep. I have seen them while hiking Wetterhorn and Uncompahgre, guarding sheep herds. Big white very unfriendly dogs.
Wolves will avoid dog guarded stock and seek easier prey.
Wolf kills of livestock that are documented result in compensation for ranchers here in MN, maybe that is part of appeasing those opposed.
And hearing a wild wolf howl (if you love wolves) will give you goose bumps!

Add the Alps to the Pyrenees and generally much of Western Europe (plains included). Nobody reintroduced wolves there, but they had abundance of easy prey in unguarded cattle and a vacant ecological niche to occupy, so they took advantage of it.

And yes, I second re the dogs near Wetterhorn/Uncompahgre. Much more awareness about their existence needs to happen before an accident occurs. I could easily have been mauled this last summer when leaving the trail on my descent from W, while walking around and away from the herd in order to give them a wide space. I was unaware of the dogs, and too surprised by the presence of the sheep (generally rare around CO high peaks) to think rationally quickly enough.

The dogs I saw in the Pyrenees weren't friendly, but I never felt that I was in danger of being attacked by them. They would just sit on the trail in front of me, blocking my path, and eventually the shepherd would call them off or they would decide that I wasn't a threat and I could continue on my way. As long as I was skirting around the main body of the flock they weren't too worried. There were signs on the trails and at trailheads as well as leaflets in the refuges, explaining what the dogs did and describing how to behave around the livestock and around the dogs. The dogs themselves seemed to be accustomed to hikers walking around, so they didn't get too excited as long as you didn't get too close to the sheep.

[Iguru]

Lure, tell me where wolf reintro. has cratered deer and elk populations?
Don't say Yellowstone, because it wasn't wolves that reduced elk populations, that has been discussed here before with the explanation for the decline being stated.
Where have reintro. wolf populations exploded, unmanaged?
You talk alot without saying much.
Show me the proof.

[LURE]

Lure, tell me where wolf reintro. has cratered deer and elk populations?
Don't say Yellowstone, because it wasn't wolves that reduced elk populations, that has been discussed here before with the explanation for the decline being stated.
Where have reintro. wolf populations exploded, unmanaged?
You talk alot without saying much.
Show me the proof.

Stop. I never said wolves would crater deer and elk populations, anywhere. Go up to my first post in this thread and you’ll find where I stated the exact opposite.

You talk without reading much and want have reason to argue.

[Iguru]

a look into the future in states like colorado - a future of cratered deer and elk populations, abundant predators and limited or no predator management,
Your words.
Liar

[LURE]

Nope, wasn’t assigning the blame to wolves. I’ll admit and apologize that the word “cratered” was being a little dramatic.

But wasn’t assigning the blame to wolves.

[evanb123]

Article here about how cow/calf numbers have been declining, and the herds may not be sustainable in the future.

https://www.vaildaily.com/news/colorado ... -20-years/

Wolves will be targeting calves and are certainly going to make the problem worse. Wolves are also known to smell when a elk is going to give birth and then they go and attack the calf and cow at their most vulnerable time. Definitely worrying for me as a hunter because I rely on having a freezer full of deer and elk meat every year, and the tags are going to be harder to get.


This whole thing is just a waste of money and time that is going to make the current problems worse, its pretty outrageous. Not to mention all the taxpayer money that is going to be wasted reimbursing ranchers, for a problem that the state created.

[Iguru]

It appears most voting taxpayers disagree with you.

[Cygnus X1]

Iguru- "Abundant predators and limited or no predator management? Not gonna happen."

Possibly you haven't you haven't heard about the next round of Colorado ballot box biology. A new proposition is going through the process to be put on the ballot next year that would eliminate the hunting of mountain lions and bobcats or severely restrict seasons to such an extent that renders managing them totally ineffective.

You think that won't stand a chance of passing?

So yeah, limited or no predator management has a strong chance of becoming the reality in CO.

[Iguru]

I don't know how populous cougars and bobcats are in Colorado, but maybe restricting their hunting IS managing the current population.