Brad Gobright fatal climbing accident

[angry]

This seems crazy. I'm not a pro or a guide and would say I'm definitely still learning (aren't we all?) but knots can save lives.

Fire,
I agree with you. Knots do save lives and the vast majority of accident reports i’ve read lately were a result of rappelling off the end of the rope. I am by no means a pro either which is why I like the article. I see a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks whenever something like this happens by climbers that are leading 5.8 at best and never even seen a big wall. I’m never going to be on Gobright’s level or Delap’s for that matter. I’ll continue to be overly cautious and triple check because I like living. And because I have no idea what goes into climbing something like Gobright did, I won’t question his decision making.

[Monster5]

This is in the info and analysis thread AND we have numerous first/second -hand accounts. As someone who generally hates baseless discourse on accidents and trite conclusions of "though shalt do X and be totally safe," I would consider this a rare instance for informed discussion, Abe.

Gobright's own partner claims to have questioned Gobright's decision not to reset the rope prior to the accident. He claims Gobright waived the concern off and continued on, nearly resulting in his partner's death. We have enough accounts to point out numerous potential causes here (partner dynamics, resetting rope, knot), and compounded consequences (simul rappeling).

THAT being said, I can say I've made every single one of those decisions (mistakes?) MANY times. I can understand why they did not re-set the rope or pull up the free end and knot. To be honest, I'd say laziness is a factor as much, if not more so, than speed.

--
I'm no expert*, but I'd estimate simul-rappelling saves me somewhere around 20-30% time with a DIALED partner. Four hands can reset a rope (feed/knot and pull/corral/take out other knot) much faster than two hands. Feeding the rope and re-rigging is on the critical path schedule in either scenario, so I've never found much credence behind why it contributes to traditional rappelling.

*I realize this can be taken as spray, but I think these claims have to be backed by experience. Furthermore and I simulrapped all of Prime Rib and Flyboys in a day, as well as plenty of other routes. Montoya and I pretty much always simul rap, including the mega bolted multis in Canmore and Chamonix. In EPC, I've simul-rapped maybe a dozen routes. There's no question in my mind it is faster, but the consequence of failure and rappel hiccups also increase. It's also good to know how to pre-rig (I do this with newer partners often) or lock off strands (stone knot, single strand blocks, one person pre-rigged, etc).

Times I opt not to simul rappel:
-No need for speed. Those of you who claim there's never a need for speed perhaps don't understand alpine climbing.
-Traversing rappel
-Wind
-Marginal anchor
-No assisted braking device, inexperienced partner
-Big overhangs
-Pretty much anytime the rappel or partner says no

[SnowAlien]

Ryan, do you tie knots at the end or no?

And no, Delap article doesn't make any sense to me either. The way I read it it's ok if they trade safety for speed? I mean, if you close the system and it catches you, it's one thing. The other outrageous example is Quinn Brett who got paralyzed because of El Cap speed record, and now this. Brad wasn't even doing any speed ascent or descent, just casual climbing with a new partner who he found on the 'Gram the day before!

[angry]

Natalie,
My takeaway is that Delap was saying this is Gobright's style--not tying the ends to save time is his MO. I get it was a casual day out but if that's his standard operating procedure it probably didn't matter either way. Delap admits he didn't know him personally so there's speculation, but I'm guessing in that circle you are well aware of the climbing styles of your peers.

Ryan,
I read that statement by his partner too. If you're climbing with someone like Gobright and he says, nah don't worry about it we're good..how do you react? I mean here's a guy (the IG partner) that was climbing with someone that was most likely way more experienced and maybe he was googly eyed/fan boy'd to the point that he didn't listen to his gut instinct so went along with it. If he was climbing with someone known to him, would he have objected?

PS. I like your comment about when you do/don't simul rappel...good info from experience isn't spray.

[Vimana Aircraft]

I read this last week and thought it was the best thing written regarding the accident: "Seeing all of the posting about Brad Gobright’s death and how we should “always put knots in the end of your rope” shows how people don’t understand climbing systems." http://www.karstendelap.com/2019/11/28/ ... your-rope/

Thanks for posting this article

[oldschool]

Been climbing since 1975. Spent most of that in Yosemite.

If my rope ends do not reach the ground I tie knots. Not complicated, easy to remember, no variance, no exceptions.

If my rope ends reach a huge ledge but not the ground..knots. If my rope reaches a hanging belay, knots. If I can't see the ends of my rope reaching the ground, knots. It's just too easy to tie some knots. No reason not to.

Sad for Brad and his friends/family. This is an accident we see too often.

Mike

[timstich]

Full disclosure, I rarely ever put a knot in the ends of my ropes, even on long multi-pitch rappels. I always confirm the location of my next anchor and my rope ends. So I'm always looking downwards as I go. I've never had a close call or come near the rope ends suddenly. But that's just me. I spent ten years rappelling in a caving environment. But in some cases I do add the knot, especially if I can't see my next anchor. I'm pretty sure I did this rappelling off the Sabre in RMNP. If you have done that rappel, which sucks, you have to pendulum all the way over to a ledge across from the wall you are coming down. At this ledge is a chockstone where the next rap is. It's not obvious at first and you are dangling 200 ft. up at that point.

[tjmartn1]

p

[oldschool]

Been climbing since 1975. Spent most of that in Yosemite.

If my rope ends do not reach the ground I tie knots. Not complicated, easy to remember, no variance, no exceptions.

If my rope ends reach a huge ledge but not the ground..knots. If my rope reaches a hanging belay, knots. If I can't see the ends of my rope reaching the ground, knots. It's just too easy to tie some knots. No reason not to.

Sad for Brad and his friends/family. This is an accident we see too often.

Mike

It would never have happened to Oldschool, everybody. He's much more safe than that. No reason to die like brad did if you are as safe as oldschool.

Lame ass attitude dick...I'm sorry, i meant richard.

Habits.....create habits. Safe and safety are relative words.

[Garrett]

Everybody is focused on knots at the end of the rope here, but not the other decisions that are likely more relevant. A knot would have stopped the accident when it occurred but other practices would have prevented an accident in the first place.

To me the real problem is an increasing popularity to simul rap for artificial perception of speed. Further the issue is also to simul rap with a grigri, rather than an atc with rappel back up on two ropes. Rappeling has always been the least safe/most exposed part of any climb and simul rapping increases the risk associated with it for little gain. An ATC type device through both ropes gives you more control and with a rappel back up allows you to stop at any point. A grigri counter balanced against your partner is less so. Simul rapping only saves you the time for a second to rap down to the next anchor, which isn't much unless you're on a big route, which still isn't that much. Two-three minutes or less a pitch, maybe, so whats the real benefit?

Personally I never to rarely tie a knot in my rappel rope but I always use a rappel backup (friction hitch) which allows me to stop above my ends, find the anchor, untangle ropes, etc. I think it's more common among experienced climbers to avoid using a stopper knot while rappeling than to actually use them. The issues they cause are worse than paying attention and having a means to stop before you hit the end.

[oldschool]

Everybody is focused on knots at the end of the rope here, but not the other decisions that are likely more relevant. A knot would have stopped the accident when it occurred but other practices would have prevented an accident in the first place.

To me the real problem is an increasing popularity to simul rap for artificial perception of speed. Further the issue is also to simul rap with a grigri, rather than an atc with rappel back up on two ropes. Rappeling has always been the least safe/most exposed part of any climb and simul rapping increases the risk associated with it for little gain. An ATC type device through both ropes gives you more control and with a rappel back up allows you to stop at any point. A grigri counter balanced against your partner is less so. Simul rapping only saves you the time for a second to rap down to the next anchor, which isn't much unless you're on a big route, which still isn't that much. Two-three minutes or less a pitch, maybe, so whats the real benefit?

Personally I never to rarely tie a knot in my rappel rope but I always use a rappel backup (friction hitch) which allows me to stop above my ends, find the anchor, untangle ropes, etc. I think it's more common among experienced climbers to avoid using a stopper knot while rappeling than to actually use them. The issues they cause are worse than paying attention and having a means to stop before you hit the end.

Can't disagree with your comment.

There are several things that could have prevented the accident...knots are simply one of them.

[justiner]

It's easy to finger-wag and I'm not telling people what to do, but maybe try to highlight why people are doing it:

Potrero is filled with moderate, multi-pitch sport climbing.

People simul-rap to save a little time (hopefully). 2-3 minutes doesn't sound like much, except you can get on a 23 pitch climb in the area, and well: then that time adds up. Gringos go down in the winter when the days are short (even in Mexico). Being benighted during a rap 1,000' up a climb looking for the anchors after a long day has its own issues.

Sport climbers tend to not use ATC-type belay devices all that much; rather preferring a Gri-Gri or similar. If you've ever belayed someone who's been hang dogging a pitch for an hour, you'll understand why. Can't rappel with a gri gri on a double strand rope, so what do you do?

Potrero moderate climbs are slabby and filled with vegetation. Getting a rope stuck in some sort of air plant lodged in a crack is almost a given. Knots in the end of the rope make this a bigger problem. Is being benighted with a stuck rope one of those situations you want to be in?

Given all these issues, simul rapping with gri gris down 1,000'+ routes without knots in the end of your rope becomes one style employed.

Are there alternatives to this approach? Yeah, there sure is. Using an ATC guide-type device works fine for these moderates, tying a knot in the end of the rope isn't the most annoying thing (until you/your partner forget to take out the knot - and remember it's 20+ pitches of raps, so it's not rare for someone to forget), and identifying the middle of your rope really seems a no-brainer.

It's sad to me that a lot of accidents in Potrero are from seemingly advanced climbers. But it just may be sloppy attention to details of the gear. Here's another accident that happened because the rope was not set up equally before the rappel + no knots:

https://www.climbing.com/news/two-climb ... co-mexico/