Is This Bomber?

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Jorts
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Re: Is This Bomber?

Post by Jorts » Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:21 pm

One of the reasons for following Einstein’s axiom, “everything should be made as simple as possible but no simpler” in anchor building is to make it easy to safety.

Somehow your search for simplicity makes this seem difficult to make that assessment. Maybe the photos contribute to that. The blue carabiner is... crowded. But appears safe enough despite the triloading. You should really have another carabiner there - especially since it isn’t a locker.

I would not rely on you as the redundancy. If it’s truly bomber, you don’t need you for redundancy. Take yourself out of the system and belay off a bight on the rope.

If I had no webbing or cordelette, and no rock pro/placements I’d have tried this (I think, hard to visualize without messing with it):

Wrap the horn. Tie an alpine butterfly for a loop on the climber side of the rope. Clip a locker to it. Clove hitch a bight from between you and the horn to that carabiner. Then use a separate carabiner and 8 on a bight to create a point to belay.

I think. This could be flawed. I’d prefer to build a couple anchors then thread the rope.
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Re: Is This Bomber?

Post by Monster5 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:31 pm

Agree with Tom.

The anchor and your redirected belay are ugly, inefficient, and not textbook, but also not unsafe for bringing up a second. Were a climber to lead off this anchor however, I'd likely redo it if the option is available (probably a red or gold cam on right).

I personally couldn't care less about your non-locker as it's hanging in free air and bookeneded by cloves. Nothing's going to trip it that won't fail the entire system anyways (eg rockfall), and nothing is going to exceed the open gate strength in your belay scenario. People get a little too fixated on lockers and non-lockers for real world practicality, but yeah, were I teaching someone, I'd critique the hell out of the non-locker (and having a carbiner there in general).

I also wouldn't be worried about triaxial loading in this scenario and the loading conditions, though I'd challenge previous posters to prove this is actually triaxially loaded in the way that matters. Nor cross loading.
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Re: Is This Bomber?

Post by pvnisher » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:14 am

I generally don't like making an anchor with just the rope.
It's more efficient, sure, but harder to visualize and check and remove yourself if needed.
I like things to be compartmented.
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Re: Is This Bomber?

Post by Jorts » Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:51 am

Monster5 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:31 pm
I personally couldn't care less about your non-locker as it's hanging in free air and bookeneded by cloves. Nothing's going to trip it that won't fail the entire system anyways (eg rockfall), and nothing is going to exceed the open gate strength in your belay scenario. People get a little too fixated on lockers and non-lockers for real world practicality

I also wouldn't be worried about triaxial loading in this scenario and the loading conditions, though I'd challenge previous posters to prove this is actually triaxially loaded in the way that matters. Nor cross loading.
It seems to be loaded in 4 different directions (though none of those loads would be so critical to lead to system failure... think the factor of safety on the carabiner is like 10 based on a 1kn climber following even if it’s cross loaded). Again, hard to tell from the photo, but that’s how it appears. That was the triaxial loading in my eyes.

Agree with the free space thing and it being a nonlocker. I just hate seeing nonlockers in critical locations unless they’re backed up.

Bottom line is, safe? Yes. Clean, easily safetied, and quickly escapable for an emergency? Not so much.
6AD61A96-E21C-45A1-BCAB-3052A2635D0A.jpeg
Multidirectional loading
6AD61A96-E21C-45A1-BCAB-3052A2635D0A.jpeg (118.1 KiB) Viewed 279 times
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Re: Is This Bomber?

Post by TomPierce » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:26 am

Been_Jammin wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:54 pm
justiner wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:45 pm
Horn is bomber, wouldn’t worry about redundancy. Sling the horn with a > double length sling, tie an overhand to make a shelf, locking biner in the shelf you made, clove hitch the locking biner with the rope - now you’re anchored in. Get an ATC Guide, locking biner on the bottom of the sling, set up the ATC and belay your second.

This is text book. Lol. Thank you for the perspective. Guide belaying straight off anchor is definitely my preference... I guess I thought having my weight as a back up added some value... maybe not. I had a double length sling in my rack... I thought I was being efficient using the rope. Using a sling would of been simpler.
I've done both, but almost always belay off my harness. Why?

-My recollection of the physics/mechanics is that your body acts as a bit of a load limiter, I think the proportion is .85/1.0, i.e. for every 1 unit of force put on an anchor, belaying off a harness transmits .85 of that force to the anchor. I usually climb crappy rock, so reducing the force on the anchor is often a good thing to me.
-Simpler/Faster: You already have the belay device on your harness, rigging a belay off the harness is usually faster for me than taking the device off the harness, etc. I once dropped a device I'd taken off the harness off a 400' cliff, had to belay off biners instead. But for sure there are pros/cons to both systems, use what suits you best. I've noticed it's also a generational thing: Younger climbers were brought up with different techniques than ancient ones like me :lol: (e.g. younger climbers like to use an ATC off the harness to belay, use EDK vs. fisherman's knots, etc.) It all works, use what is most intuitive to you.

And Been Jammin, you no doubt know by now that tech climbers will pick apart each others technique/rigging/accidents, it's the nature of the sport. Post this over on mountainproject and you'll get pages of responses, some harsh/snarky. An accident here is followed by multiple condolence posts; over there it's usually pages of technical analysis, with some condolences mixed in. But it's all meant to make you think in the most positive of ways, to add what I think of as another layer to the technical onion; another trick in your arsenal could save your butt some day. I've certainly been picked apart, and another tech saying I have is the sailor's "any port in a storm," i.e. if you don't have much to work with for protection/belays, don't expect perfection. I've belayed off crap, and very occasionally off nothing at all, the a cheval "meat anchor." Bottom line: I thought your anchor was good as you descibe it, actually kinda clever. Be safe out there!

Just my opinions,

-Tom
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Re: Is This Bomber?

Post by Monster5 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:05 am

Jorts - those loads (assuming they all get loaded) are essentially acting on only two points of the carabiner with two resultant forces. Further, the loads at each point are at a small angle to one another. Triaxial load tests rely on loading three different parts of the carabiner with three different resultant forces at broader angles.
Testing has shown that, for instance, double loads on the small end of a pear-shaped carabiner hardly reduce strength, whereas double loads on the big end do. In all cases, the breaking strenth was still ridiculously strong and well above any force that could be seen in climbing.
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Re: Is This Bomber?

Post by TomPierce » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:12 am

Monster5 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:05 am
Jorts - those loads (assuming they all get loaded) are essentially acting on only two points of the carabiner with two resultant forces. Further, the loads at each point are at a small angle to one another. Triaxial load tests rely on loading three different parts of the carabiner with three different resultant forces at broader angles.
Testing has shown that, for instance, double loads on the small end of a pear-shaped carabiner hardly reduce strength, whereas double loads on the big end do. In all cases, the breaking strenth was still ridiculously strong and well above any force that could be seen in climbing.
...particulalrly the forces generated by a second slipping/falling from below. Hence my earlier comment that the biner loading issue might be more academic vs. real world.

But again, all input is good to round out the discussion. I love this stuff.

-Tom
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Re: Is This Bomber?

Post by Jorts » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:22 am

I agree the multiaxial loading is trivial here. Anyway, I found this clip of the "Connecticut Tree Hitch". This would be a great, clean alternative to the anchor used by the OP. Really slick. I've never been in a situation where I needed to go just off the rope like that on a single anchor so it really made me think. Thanks!

Last edited by Jorts on Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is This Bomber?

Post by FireOnTheMountain » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:48 am

Been_Jammin wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:54 pm
Using a sling would of been simpler.
Using the rope as part of the anchor can be nifty. A simpler approach would have been to perhaps just wrap the horn as you did then tie a fig 8 on a bite with both strands coming off the horn (will require a good amount of excess rope in the system, which it appears you had plenty of). Now you got a masterpoint to clip to and guide mode off. Guide mode off the MP will also help with forcing to keep the rope at a downward angle and not pop up over the top of the horn.

Not sure I fully follow your arresting a fall argument if the horn were to break but I also wasnt there. I'm just saying the above would have worked assuming the horn is bomber itself.
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Re: Is This Bomber?

Post by Been_Jammin » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:53 am

Jorts wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:21 pm
One of the reasons for following Einstein’s axiom, “everything should be made as simple as possible but no simpler” in anchor building is to make it easy to safety.

Somehow your search for simplicity makes this seem difficult to make that assessment. Maybe the photos contribute to that. The blue carabiner is... crowded. But appears safe enough despite the triloading. You should really have another carabiner there - especially since it isn’t a locker.

I would not rely on you as the redundancy. If it’s truly bomber, you don’t need you for redundancy. Take yourself out of the system and belay off a bight on the rope.

If I had no webbing or cordelette, and no rock pro/placements I’d have tried this (I think, hard to visualize without messing with it):

Wrap the horn. Tie an alpine butterfly for a loop on the climber side of the rope. Clip a locker to it. Clove hitch a bight from between you and the horn to that carabiner. Then use a separate carabiner and 8 on a bight to create a point to belay.

I think. This could be flawed. I’d prefer to build a couple anchors then thread the rope.
Thanks for the input Jorts. Wrapping the horn is a good thought... would of created more friction with the horn and mitigated risk of rope slipping off the horn even further. Einstein was a beast.
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Re: Is This Bomber?

Post by Been_Jammin » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:56 am

Monster5 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:31 pm
Agree with Tom.

The anchor and your redirected belay are ugly, inefficient, and not textbook, but also not unsafe for bringing up a second. Were a climber to lead off this anchor however, I'd likely redo it if the option is available (probably a red or gold cam on right).

I personally couldn't care less about your non-locker as it's hanging in free air and bookeneded by cloves. Nothing's going to trip it that won't fail the entire system anyways (eg rockfall), and nothing is going to exceed the open gate strength in your belay scenario. People get a little too fixated on lockers and non-lockers for real world practicality, but yeah, were I teaching someone, I'd critique the hell out of the non-locker (and having a carbiner there in general).

I also wouldn't be worried about triaxial loading in this scenario and the loading conditions, though I'd challenge previous posters to prove this is actually triaxially loaded in the way that matters. Nor cross loading.
Lol... my ugly anchor is going to develop an eating disorder. Thanks for the feedback. I agree this anchor would not be appropriate to lead off of.
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Re: Is This Bomber?

Post by Been_Jammin » Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:07 am

TomPierce wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:26 am
Been_Jammin wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:54 pm
justiner wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:45 pm
Horn is bomber, wouldn’t worry about redundancy. Sling the horn with a > double length sling, tie an overhand to make a shelf, locking biner in the shelf you made, clove hitch the locking biner with the rope - now you’re anchored in. Get an ATC Guide, locking biner on the bottom of the sling, set up the ATC and belay your second.

This is text book. Lol. Thank you for the perspective. Guide belaying straight off anchor is definitely my preference... I guess I thought having my weight as a back up added some value... maybe not. I had a double length sling in my rack... I thought I was being efficient using the rope. Using a sling would of been simpler.
I've done both, but almost always belay off my harness. Why?

-My recollection of the physics/mechanics is that your body acts as a bit of a load limiter, I think the proportion is .85/1.0, i.e. for every 1 unit of force put on an anchor, belaying off a harness transmits .85 of that force to the anchor. I usually climb crappy rock, so reducing the force on the anchor is often a good thing to me.
-Simpler/Faster: You already have the belay device on your harness, rigging a belay off the harness is usually faster for me than taking the device off the harness, etc. I once dropped a device I'd taken off the harness off a 400' cliff, had to belay off biners instead. But for sure there are pros/cons to both systems, use what suits you best. I've noticed it's also a generational thing: Younger climbers were brought up with different techniques than ancient ones like me :lol: (e.g. younger climbers like to use an ATC off the harness to belay, use EDK vs. fisherman's knots, etc.) It all works, use what is most intuitive to you.

And Been Jammin, you no doubt know by now that tech climbers will pick apart each others technique/rigging/accidents, it's the nature of the sport. Post this over on mountainproject and you'll get pages of responses, some harsh/snarky. An accident here is followed by multiple condolence posts; over there it's usually pages of technical analysis, with some condolences mixed in. But it's all meant to make you think in the most positive of ways, to add what I think of as another layer to the technical onion; another trick in your arsenal could save your butt some day. I've certainly been picked apart, and another tech saying I have is the sailor's "any port in a storm," i.e. if you don't have much to work with for protection/belays, don't expect perfection. I've belayed off crap, and very occasionally off nothing at all, the a cheval "meat anchor." Bottom line: I thought your anchor was good as you descibe it, actually kinda clever. Be safe out there!

Just my opinions,

-Tom
Thanks for the advice Tom! Luckily I was not coddled as a child. lol... so harsh/snarky feedback doesn't bother me. I sincerely welcome it actually. I'm just trying to continuously improve and add tricks to my arsenal like you said.
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