Castle/Conundrum Saddle and Gully

[14erFred]

Aug Dog: I hear you and understand the reluctance to ask Bill to revise the guidebook route description for the descent from Conundrum. My primary concern is that the current route description ignores the dangers of a summer descent from the Castle-Conundrum saddle when the snow has melted. And this lack of information may give inexperienced climbers a false sense of security during the summer months. The current guidebook description (i.e., "descend snow or loose rock/dirt towards the small, high basin between the two peaks") makes it sound as if this standard route is always the best way to descend. But it makes more sense to me to inform climbers explicitly that reclimbing Castle may be a safer, albeit longer way, to descend when the snow pack has melted in the upper basin; and to encourage climbers to use wise judgment in selecting between these two optional descent routes. IMHO, to recommend only the direct descent from the saddle both misrepresents the serious nature of this descent route in late summer conditions (as Relative to Zero's post emphasizes), as well as encourages accelerated erosion (as painless4u2 notes).

Although the class-rating label that you proposed for the descent route from the Castle-Conundrum saddle might clarify the summer rockfall danger, why not change the online guidebook description of this descent route to read as follows?: "From the saddle, there are two options for the descent: (1) turn left (east) and descend snow or loose rock/dirt towards the small, high basin between the two peaks; or (2) climb Castle Peak's Northwest Ridge to its summit, and descend from there back down the Northeast Ridge to upper Montezuma Basin. By avoiding potential rockfall, the latter descent route is safer when the snow pack has melted out below the Castle-Conundrum saddle."

[Aug_Dog]

Fred:

There is not one single point in your post above that I disagree with. Not a single one. In fact, get out of my head!

I'm just not sure I am qualified enough to challenge Bill's routes. Not that I give a s**t to kiss Bill's ass or anything ...

But, you are spot on. Perfectly.

[Roald]

I just descended this gully on monday. This has so far been the only time I felt like I made a grave mistake on a mountain. I'd say 75% of the rocks there are just waiting for you to grab them so they can go smashing down the basin. The dry dirt was incredibly slippery and on one occasion I found myself sliding towards a drop off. Lucky there are a few semi-stable handholds. To make things worse, the weather suddenly went south earlier than expected (by about 3 hours) and it began to sleet as we descended. There was constant rockfall in the basin, but most of it was near the Castle end. The going was so slow another group that we shared Conundrum with made it back over Castle and down to the other side of the lake by the time we were 1/3 of the way down. They stopped to watch us for the last portion, but disappeared when the thunder began.

This portion is definitely not class 2+ without snow.

Exactly the beta I was looking for. Not only is there no way I'll try to ascend that gulley in a few weeks, I'll likely be going back over Castle on the descent even though I only really need to bag Conundrum. Thanks for the feedback.

[Aug_Dog]

I just descended this gully on monday. This has so far been the only time I felt like I made a grave mistake on a mountain. I'd say 75% of the rocks there are just waiting for you to grab them so they can go smashing down the basin. The dry dirt was incredibly slippery and on one occasion I found myself sliding towards a drop off. Lucky there are a few semi-stable handholds. To make things worse, the weather suddenly went south earlier than expected (by about 3 hours) and it began to sleet as we descended. There was constant rockfall in the basin, but most of it was near the Castle end. The going was so slow another group that we shared Conundrum with made it back over Castle and down to the other side of the lake by the time we were 1/3 of the way down. They stopped to watch us for the last portion, but disappeared when the thunder began.

This portion is definitely not class 2+ without snow.

Sounds eerily similar to my experience.

[Aug_Dog]

I just descended this gully on monday. This has so far been the only time I felt like I made a grave mistake on a mountain. I'd say 75% of the rocks there are just waiting for you to grab them so they can go smashing down the basin. The dry dirt was incredibly slippery and on one occasion I found myself sliding towards a drop off. Lucky there are a few semi-stable handholds. To make things worse, the weather suddenly went south earlier than expected (by about 3 hours) and it began to sleet as we descended. There was constant rockfall in the basin, but most of it was near the Castle end. The going was so slow another group that we shared Conundrum with made it back over Castle and down to the other side of the lake by the time we were 1/3 of the way down. They stopped to watch us for the last portion, but disappeared when the thunder began.

This portion is definitely not class 2+ without snow.

Exactly the beta I was looking for. Not only is there no way I'll try to ascend that gulley in a few weeks, I'll likely be going back over Castle on the descent even though I only really need to bag Conundrum. Thanks for the feedback.

sometimes getting a peak for the second time is the best ...

my third trip up bierstadt was one of my most rewarding ...

my second time on the top of Evans was one of my most memorable summits ever, mostly because of the journey there and the company i was with, but needless to say ...

jus'sayin!

[Tony1]

To add some more personal experience to this thread, I don't think the descent from the saddle would save any time at all. When I was out there for the first time, I re-summited Castle because I didn't like hearing the rockfall in the basin. I left Conundrum about the same time as a couple other parties who opted to descend from the saddle. I watched them during my descent and they were moving very slow. I made it back to the end of the road while they were still further up in the basin.

Re-climbing and then descending Castle is actually a lot of fun, and goes quickly once the trail leaves the ridge and heads back down toward the talus field above the road. Plus, you stay out of potential rockfall and the slick mess that I'm glad I didn't try to descend.

[Aug_Dog]

Here is a pic of me after descending the saddle in 2010. I have my hands on my hips for a reason. It was utter relief and exhaustion. The pic is low res off my facebook page, so I have no idea what line we took down, but even if it was the highest possible res, I wouldn't be able to tell you what line we took down. This was in late August or early September?

The major pitfall of this route is quite simple: from Conundrum and from the saddle, it looks totally doable, but it is incredibly deceiving once you are committed. That combined with the fact that climbing back up is nearly impossible, given the looseness of the route, and it just makes for a really, really dangerous route, particularly since so many inexperienced climbers choose this route. We met a guy on our way up Conundrum that was on his way down and we chatted for a minute. He seemed mildly experienced and said he was going to descend the saddle. We watched for a bit as he worked his way down, but lost him as he made his way under the cliffs. From our vantage point, it seemed a viable option, so we decided to pick our way down.

I can't recall specifically, but looking back up at that downclimb and remembering the loose awfulness makes me kind of uneasy. My buddy just happened to catch this photo of me at the EXACT moment that I felt out of harm's way. Truly. The thing to remember about this route is, the crux is down climbing the steep section of the saddle, but you are by no means out of harms way until you clear almost half of the lake. Super sketch. I'm shaking my head in pulling out this old photo.

[rkalsbeek]

I appreciate everyone's advice about this! That's why I love 14ers.com. Definitely helpful as I plan my summit attempt.

I do want to say that, while constant rockfall is a dangerous thing, I'm kind of excited to hear that echoing/ricocheting sound through the area, as you all described. Something I haven't quite experienced during my hikes in the Rockies. I'm imagining the sound in my head and it just makes me feel the isolation and "escape from civilization" you get when you're really out in the wilderness.

[Kevo]

Figured I'd chime in here since this was a bit of a consideration for me recently- A friend and I climbed Castle/Conundrum a few days ago.

On the way up Castle we looked at the descent off the saddle and both thought "no way is that worth it."

After standing above the descent on the way over to Conundrum we felt a bit more confident in it. We talked with some other people that headed down before us about a game plan to give hand signals in the event that it was bad. Everyone made it down quickly and I assume without any major issues.

Some thoughts-

-In my opinion, the descent gully was worth it for my partner and I. It really wasn't that bad and we got down it much, much faster than we expected.
-You will knock rocks down. Take extra precaution if you are in a larger group or if you expect people above you. Wear a helmet. Be careful if anyone is below you.
-Route finding wasn't that bad. We were able to traverse hard left above the cliff section, then work our way right toward an area without rocks as we moved through the steepest section. We "skied" the bottom 1/3 or 1/2 of the way into the basin on dirt really quickly.
-Look for a left trending exit a little ways below the cliff band.
-The talus you traverse as you work your way back to the main trail is not as bad compared to many other 14ers (N Maroon, Pyramid, Princeton)
-The gully was much, much easier and less sketchy than I remember the standard descent route down Challenger.
-If it is raining, I'd expect a lot of stuff to come down the gully.
-High top boots were great to have to keep dirt and small rocks out of my shoes.
-Already mentioned, but def bring a helmet.
-Crappy Fall conditions (new, unconsolidated snow) would make that gully awful.

I'd guess that we saved an hour or so by going that way. It was much better than we expected.

Edit- Stole Aug_Dog's photo to show roughly our descent route-

[mkrier]

I don't believe you can save anymore than 1 hr descending the gully, if that. I was coming down same time a couple groups were and was ~5-15 min behind. Maybe both groups were really slow. I'm on the faster side, so even taking that into consideration, I still don't see how you could get to 1hr+ time difference.

[rkalsbeek]

I agree w/ Mkrier. I watched two other groups go down the saddle (watched for a good amount of time) and then I went back up Castle and down the trail I came. We were maybe 10 minutes behind them, and able to hitch a ride with them back down part of the way haha! I don't think this really saves you any time. Maybe distance and more elevation gain, but not time.

[Jim Davies]

Just because you don't die or get seriously injured, it doesn't mean it was a good route decision. Try not to lead people into trouble with your advice, OK?