Castle/Conundrum Saddle and Gully

[highpilgrim]

There were multiple cases where I would step and rocks 10 feet above me on the slope would move around.

My recollection is the same. Those steep talus slopes beneath relatively flat looking areas are often in my experience very unstable and are in some cases rock glaciers that are indeed moving all the time. I avoid areas like that, regardless of the mountain on which I encounter one.

They are poised to "resettle" and it would be very bad to be under one when it does. Geological time in action!

[rkalsbeek]

Thanks for the info about this! I'm planning on climbing Castle/Conundrum this weekend.

I'm looking to up the difficulty of the peaks I climb. Wondering what everyone on this post who has climbed Castle thinks about it? I've summitted all of the front range 14ers (except Pike's), Long's Peak, Holy Cross, Mosquito Range.....

Obviously I have to judge myself, but just wondering what people thought about Castle/Conundrum as a step up in difficulty/exposure. Or if there are other peaks you'd suggest I go for.

[MountainHiker]

Yes, dropping down from that saddle is nasty. I’ve done that a couple times. The last time we were up there we returned over Castle instead.

[14erFred]

As others have emphasized, descending directly from the Castle-Conundrum saddle to upper Montezuma Basin is dangerous if the cliffs are bare (as they currently are) and there is no snow down which to glissade.

If you reach the summit of Castle Peak, just keep in mind that you need sufficient time to cross all the way over to Conundrum and then climb all the way back up to the top of Castle to descend.

On your way over to Conundrum and back, you are out on a proverbial limb, and the ridgecrest you are traversing is no place to get caught in a storm. Before starting the traverse to Conundrum, size up the weather -- you'll need an hour or more of stable weather to get over and back. And you'll still need additional time to descend from the top of Castle back to the end of the jeep road up Montezuma Basin.

Be forewarned and use wise judgment.

[howmuchhigher]

While everybody is saying sound advice about conditions and the saddle descent I still feel like playing devils advocate. I just recently did the castle conundrum combo with the saddle descent and while it was slippery it wasn't impossible. It is certainly an option to entertain without snow on it. If you arent bothered by a little loose rock and can read a slope well enough to know what holds to go for and what to avoid then you will be fine. I know I saved some time and saw other hikers as well take that descent. Looking downhill I made my way across the snow sidestepping and glissading to the right of the lake - I didn't want to be underneath any cliffs if I could help it. I was also very mindful of what rock activity was going on above me until sufficiently far enough away. I would recommend emptying your pockets and zipping up everything in a closed compartment of your backpack in case you slide or bust your butt - both could easily happen. After the lake keep hanging right until you meet back up with the trail. Like I said, there are options.

[14erFred]

When three friends and I climbed Castle and Conundrum on 7/26/13, just like marcstrawser, we too heard large rockfall continuously raking the slope beneath the Castle-Conundrum saddle. Even with helmets, the descent from the saddle under current conditions is a high-stakes form of alpine Russian roulette. Yet as howmuchhigher noted, the slope beneath the saddle is slippery but not impossible. Descending this route would indeed save time, but with substantially increased risk. The savings of time might be warranted if a storm was moving in fast. But the slope beneath the saddle would be no place to get caught in a thunderstorm. As howmuchhigher observed, sliding or busting your butt both could easily happen when descending from the saddle under current conditions. Whereas experienced climbers might well negotiate the saddle descent safely wearing helmets, less experienced climbers would be smart to climb back over Castle Peak instead.

[Aug_Dog]

With all due respect, "possible" does not equate to "safe," particularly when the stakes are so high.

Ever since descending the saddle, I've felt responsible at some level with helping educate folks in NOT using this route during summer conditions, as it could have been a really costly mistake.

The sense of relief I felt when we made it out of that basin is something I will never forget. It dominates my memory in terms of being relieved of a poor choice on the mountain. It was the first time I really felt like I was going to get hurt on a 14er/13er. It was incredibly eye-opening and I've never felt that mortal in my life. I haven't felt that since doing the Castle/Conundrum combo, and I have climbed many class III and IV routes since.

As we made it down out of the basin, a group approached us and expressed their concern for our choice and in my opinion, it was welcomed and warranted. They said they were on the ridge up Castle watching us with binoculars and were prepared to call for rescue. That was an extremely humbling day for me.

Folks, unless weather moves in, just go back up over Castle. Because we had to so carefully pick our way down the saddle, I'm not sure it didn't even take LONGER than going back up over Castle.

[14erFred]

Thanks for your open honesty and clear thinking, Aug Dog. I agree completely with your insightful take on this issue. Descending from the Castle-Conundrum saddle under current conditions is a serious accident just waiting to happen. The potential cost is simply not worth the benefit.

Your wise advice could well save lives, Aug Dog. I note that the 14ers.com online guidebook makes the descent from the saddle seem inconsequential: "From the saddle, turn left (east) and descend snow or loose rock/dirt towards the small, high basin between the two peaks." As your post underscores, however, this descent route is far from reasonable when the snow cover has melted out.

I recommend that Bill revise the online guidebook to warn climbers about the danger of descending from the Castle-Conundrum saddle when the snow pack is absent and the slope is bare. The online guidebook should recommend that climbers climb back over Castle to descend, when the slope beneath the saddle is free of snow.

[painless4u2]

14erFred said:
Whereas experienced climbers might well negotiate the saddle descent safely wearing helmets, less experienced climbers would be smart to climb back over Castle Peak instead.

It would seem experience would teach one what would be a better route vs. a supposedly faster route. Saving a little time (which as noted above is questionable) doesn't translate to better. And this doesn't even begin to address accelerated erosion, similar to what's happening on Sunshine. These are things I feel experience teaches.

[14erFred]

painless4u2 makes a valid and important point: Experience ought to teach one which routes to take and which to avoid. Indeed, experience does not make one safer when playing Russian roulette. I have been climbing 14ers every summer for the past 33 years and yet found it prudent to reclimb Castle after climbing Conundrum, rather than descending from the Caste-Conundrum saddle. The online guidebook needs to be changed to advise against descending from the Castle-Conundrum saddle when the snow has melted out.

[Aug_Dog]

Thanks for your open honesty and clear thinking, Aug Dog. I agree completely with your insightful take on this issue. Descending from the Castle-Conundrum saddle under current conditions is a serious accident just waiting to happen. The potential cost is simply not worth the benefit.

Your wise advice could well save lives, Aug Dog. I note that the 14ers.com online guidebook makes the descent from the saddle seem inconsequential: "From the saddle, turn left (east) and descend snow or loose rock/dirt towards the small, high basin between the two peaks." As your post underscores, however, this descent route is far from reasonable when the snow cover has melted out.

I recommend that Bill revise the online guidebook to warn climbers about the danger of descending from the Castle-Conundrum saddle when the snow pack is absent and the slope is bare. The online guidebook should recommend that climbers climb back over Castle to descend, when the slope beneath the saddle is free of snow.

Kind of a touchy matter for me, asking Bill to revise the route. I would be on the fence on this topic for several reasons. Several factors play into that: (a) each climber is different. My best climbing buddy and I vary quite a bit in what we both feel is sketchy. For some reason, steep, exposed, walled gulleys don't bother me, but they bother him greatly. Airy walls tend to bother me a bit more, but not him. It's all relative. (b) the descent from the saddle might be a perfectly viable option for some and that's cool. It wouldn't be fair to pull that info.

Now, would I be supportive of revising this to maybe even label it by class? Absolutely. I know the line we picked REQUIRED facing in, four point climbing, so I would call it low class IV. I would only ask that the route, in summer, be classified better and suggest against climbers with class II or II+ comfort using this route.

Does that make sense?

[Relative to Zero]

I just descended this gully on monday. This has so far been the only time I felt like I made a grave mistake on a mountain. I'd say 75% of the rocks there are just waiting for you to grab them so they can go smashing down the basin. The dry dirt was incredibly slippery and on one occasion I found myself sliding towards a drop off. Lucky there are a few semi-stable handholds. To make things worse, the weather suddenly went south earlier than expected (by about 3 hours) and it began to sleet as we descended. There was constant rockfall in the basin, but most of it was near the Castle end. The going was so slow another group that we shared Conundrum with made it back over Castle and down to the other side of the lake by the time we were 1/3 of the way down. They stopped to watch us for the last portion, but disappeared when the thunder began.

This portion is definitely not class 2+ without snow.