Snow camping practice 12/11-12/12

[Carl]

Interested and ill be on skis if I go.

If there is decent chance of Uncompahgre being skiable from the summit (however contrived and rocky), I'd be pretty tempted to join you guys. It's a long shot but if anyone finds some beta/photos on conditions during the week or two leading up to this trip, great!

[sgladbach]

I was thinking Uncompahgre. Meet Saturday morning about 8:30AM (Montrose motels?)

I meant :" Gunnison motels." If anyone wanted to drive up Friday night, there are some inexpensive motels in Gunnison. It's about 1:15 to the TH Saturday morning. Otherwise, one might drive all the wat to Lake City on Friday and sleep in the car (the Town Square motel is open in the off-season, but it is hard for me to give them a positive recommendation. There are some nicer places, but the prices go up and they don't take dogs.)

I'm leaning toward Friday night in my car at the TH. I'm hoping the 8:30 start allows enough time for people to leave Denver at a less than unholy hour and join us. Someone running late should be able to follow the track and catch up!

[COBuckeye]

I will almost definitely be sleeping in the 4Runner unless I end up taking more than one other person. If the car fills up then I think I will be making the entire drive Saturday morning (ouch!).

[SkiBum1287]

Interested and ill be on skis if I go.

If there is decent chance of Uncompahgre being skiable from the summit (however contrived and rocky), I'd be pretty tempted to join you guys. It's a long shot but if anyone finds some beta/photos on conditions during the week or two leading up to this trip, great!

Not Uncompahgre, but in the neighborhood, Wolf Creek is forecasted to get upwards of 4' in the next few days . That should at least give you a shot at a less contrived summit descent.

[sgladbach]

Current interested Parties:


Steve

jamie (jamie)
Laura
Matt
Kevin
Ryan (Baumgara)Potentially:Al ,Julie and maybe Dave
zoriloco
bjohnson17 (barry)
COBuckeye
WIclimber
Sgladbach (steve)
El Chupacabra (paul)
Wesley
shogun
lostsheep5 (Eric)
shredthegnar10
kiefer (kiefer)
d_baker (darin)
fepic1 (john)
fepic1's son Tyler (tyler)
ngoodnight (Nolan) and, possibly, Becca


I'd shoot ofr under 35 pounds. Try to team up on tents and stoves. I'm leaving a helmet behind, but carrying an axe and either crampons or microspikes. The terrain can be negotiated w minimal avy danger, but skiers, especially, may choose a more avy prone descent so beacons may be appropriate. I may bring one for some parctice near camp, but I'm not certain they are neccesary. Opinions? I'll carry a shovel.


I posted this on another thread, but there are some cool articles in here:

Winter "Technical" climbing? My experience is with general mountaineering and solo winter mountaineering. I'm not capable (or comfortable) with a winter lead on the Ellingwood Arete or an east face mixed route on Longs. I'm pretty competent at general mountaineering in the winter.

Some observations:

Day hikes:

1. Summer or winter: I NEVER leave the TH w/o enough gear to spend the night. I always have a headlamp, 10 essentials, warm clothes, bivy sack etc. The weight goes up considerably in winter; I go from 15 lbs. in summer to 22 in winter (not including water.) I don't climb Quandary w/o enough gear to spend the night. It may not be for me; someone else may break a leg while tripping between two rocks. Odds are they are not prepared to spend the night. I try to say fit/strong enough to carry this gear and still be a medium-paced hiker. I'm not interested in a race up a mountain. That's for younger guys with smaller packs.

2. Never sweat. I commonly violate my own rule when I climb Barr trail in winter; I bust it getting to Barr camp. Then, in the convenience of a warm cabin, I strip my wet clothes, and change to dry shirts. Then, I return to my "No Sweat" policy.

3. ALWAYS bring mittens; gloves are simply a convenience. Never substitute gloves for mittens.

4. For skiers, seek advice at http://www.elksandbeyond.com/, http://www.wildsnow.com/, http://www.14erskiers.com/, or any of the many competent ski mountaineers on this site.

I'm a snowshoer. For mountaineering, I find the MSR shoes the best. Their siderails are essential for summit hiking. I use a Denali Classic with tails. There are higher model MSRs, but these are cheapest and I find them more than adequate. For a camping trip w/o a summit, a broader shoe (Atlas/ Tubbs) is better.

Campouts:

5. Bring the smallest tent possible for the # of sleepers. (Minimal space to heat) side-opening tents allow you to cook while still in your bag.

6. Bring a dry set of long underwear and socks used solely for sleeping/ tent lounging.

7. Use bottles of hot water in your shoes and your bag. A pee bottle can be stored in the bag. You don't want to let heat escape by opening the door. Ladies, investigate the Lady Jane.

8. Drink lots of hot fluids. See "Pee Bottle"

9. Limit sex to a loving romp; NO Sweating!

Other good info:

Day hiking: http://www.backpacking.net/winter.html

Camping: http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/winter/wintcamp.shtml

http://www.backpacking.net/winter.html

http://www.wintercampers.com/07-winter-camping-shelter

http://www.skipulk.com/

Igloo Ed and the "Icebox" tool:

http://www.14ers.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ed#p332903

http://search.mywebsearch.com/mywebsear ... D%3D&ct=AR

After you read all this, find a good set of partners and take the time to build skills and earn your harder summits. For the record: those claiming the list of winter summits have followed these rules of the game: http://www.amc4000footer.org/faq.htm#winter and http://www.amc4000footer.org/faq.htm#rules1 (i.e. no snowmobiles, ATVs). Kill me now.

[globreal]

Steve,

I'm interested in joining you on this if the planets align. Let's talk.

[EatinHardtack]

I'm possibly interested in this also. But I want a summit ski descent as well. I was originally planning for this in the Jan-Feb time frame but I'll try and make it down there if the snow is worth it.

[d_baker]

Current interested Parties:


Steve

jamie (jamie)
Laura
Matt
Kevin
Ryan (Baumgara)Potentially:Al ,Julie and maybe Dave
zoriloco
bjohnson17 (barry)
COBuckeye
WIclimber
Sgladbach (steve)
El Chupacabra (paul)
Wesley
shogun
lostsheep5 (Eric)
shredthegnar10
kiefer (kiefer)
d_baker (darin)
fepic1 (john)
fepic1's son Tyler (tyler)
ngoodnight (Nolan) and, possibly, Becca


I'd shoot ofr under 35 pounds. Try to team up on tents and stoves. I'm leaving a helmet behind, but carrying an axe and either crampons or microspikes. The terrain can be negotiated w minimal avy danger, but skiers, especially, may choose a more avy prone descent so beacons may be appropriate. I may bring one for some parctice near camp, but I'm not certain they are neccesary. Opinions? I'll carry a shovel.


I posted this on another thread, but there are some cool articles in here:

Winter "Technical" climbing? My experience is with general mountaineering and solo winter mountaineering. I'm not capable (or comfortable) with a winter lead on the Ellingwood Arête or an east face mixed route on Longs. I’m pretty competent at general mountaineering in the winter.

Some observations:

Day hikes:

1. Summer or winter: I NEVER leave the TH w/o enough gear to spend the night. I always have a headlamp, 10 essentials, warm clothes, bivy sack etc. The weight goes up considerably in winter; I go from 15 lbs. in summer to 22 in winter (not including water.) I don't climb Quandary w/o enough gear to spend the night. It may not be for me; there are lots of people who may break a leg while tripping between two rocks. Odds are they are not prepared to spend the night. I try to say fit/strong enough to carry this gear and still be a medium-paced hiker. I’m not interested in a race up a mountain. That’s for younger guys with smaller packs.

2. Never sweat. I commonly violate my own rule when I climb Barr trail in winter; I bust it getting to Barr camp. then, in the covience of a warm cabin, I strip my wet clothes, and change to dry shirts. Then, I return to my "No Sweat” policy.

3. ALWAYS bring mittens; gloves are a convenience.

4. For skiers, seek advice at http://www.elksandbeyond.com/, http://www.wildsnow.com/, http://www.14erskiers.com/, or any of the many competent ski mountaineers on this site.

I’m a snowshoer. For mountaineering, I find the MSR shoes the best. I use a Denali Classic with tails. There are higher model MSRs, but these are cheapest and I find them more than adequate, for a camping trip w/o a summit, a broader shoe is better.

Campouts:

5. Bring the smallest tent possible for the # of sleepers. (Minimal space to heat) side-opening tents allow you to cook while still in your bag.

6. Bring a dry set of long underwear and socks used solely for sleeping/ tent lounging.

7. Use bottles of hot water in your shoes and your bag. A pee bottle can be stored in the bag. You don’t want to let heat escape by opening the door. Ladies, investigate the Lady Jane.

8. Drink lots of hot fluids. See “Pee Bottle”

9. Limit sex to a loving romp; NO Sweating!

Other good info:

Day hiking: http://www.backpacking.net/winter.html

Camping: http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/winter/wintcamp.shtml

http://www.backpacking.net/winter.html

http://www.wintercampers.com/07-winter-camping-shelter

http://www.skipulk.com/

Igloo Ed and the “Icebox” tool:

http://www.14ers.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ed#p332903

http://search.mywebsearch.com/mywebsear ... D%3D&ct=AR

After you read all this, find a good set of partners and take the time to build skills and earn your harder summits. For the record: those claiming the list of winter summits have followed these rules of the game: http://www.amc4000footer.org/faq.htm#winter and http://www.amc4000footer.org/faq.htm#rules1 (i.e. no snowmobiles, ATVs). Kill me now.

Steve, being a teacher, you have probably heard this before. I did not do my homework with the above links.

I do have a question though. Wouldn't you normally carry a shovel regardless if you're carrying avy gear or not?
For building a tent platform? Or do you stomp it out with snowshoes?

Also, do you use two pads when camping on snow?
I use a closed cell foam pad (ridgecrest) on the bottom and an insulated big agnes on top.
The bottom pad blocks the cold from coming through, and the top pad keeps my body warmth.

I still think I'll make it to this, and I'm trying to convince MadMike to join me/us.

-Darin

[sgladbach]

I did not do my homework with the above links.

I do have a question though. Wouldn't you normally carry a shovel regardless if you're carrying avy gear or not?
For building a tent platform? Or do you stomp it out with snowshoes?

I always take a shovel in the winter to prepare a campsite and perform campsite chores. However, in the absence of travel through avy terrain, I leave it at the tent. So...I think shovels can be shared : one to every one or two tents, unless you plan to ski off the top or climb one of a couple gullies. I thought we'd establish a route around.

Also, do you use two pads when camping on snow?
I use a closed cell foam pad (ridgecrest) on the bottom and an insulated big agnes on top.
The bottom pad blocks the cold from coming through, and the top pad keeps my body warmth.

I use a $10 walmart (usually they're blue) closed-cell on the bottom. It's also good for sitting on around camp. I don't have an insulated inflatable. I did, however, upgrade to Thermarest prolite4 (4 season) at the end of last season. Until then, I've always used a standard Thermarest.

[Gueza]

Steve do you think that a 15 degree down bag, silk liner, said walmart pad, a thermarest and a down jacket would be warm enough for winter nights? I'm kinda new to winter camping, only been out 3 true nights with different heavier gear, all were a little chilly.

[Carl]

Thanks for putting this together Steve. I'm still interested but wouldn't be able to make it down until later on Saturday and will probably just hold off unless we get confirmation that Uncompahgre is skiable. Assuming that doesn't happen... have a good trip and climb!

[mountainmicah83]

Steve do you think that a 15 degree down bag, silk liner, said walmart pad, a thermarest and a down jacket would be warm enough for winter nights? I'm kinda new to winter camping, only been out 3 true nights with different heavier gear, all were a little chilly.

I won't even pretend to be Steve on this one and would love to hear what he has to say as well but I can give you my 2 cents from past experiences. I was out on San Luis last January and decided to bivy without a tent (stupid idea) It got down to -9 before the windchill. I only camped at 11,500' or so with a couple of buddies and we dug a pit in the snow but it was absolutely miserable. We waited for the sun to come out and headed home. I was in a 0 degree down marmot teton (womens) bag on a thermarest and inside an emergency Bivy. (I say the bag is "my wife's" becasue it is women's but it is really mine. We just got a good deal at the REI garage sale.) While I may not have hundreds of nights on 14ers, I have learned from many of my adventurous experiences where things could have gotten a lot worse as well as from my time in the marines to include Cold weather training.

What you have suggested should be fine for the winter night but here are a few things to consider that I have learned mostly the hard way.

1. I like that you know about the said walmart backup. I cut mine down to a length from the knees to shoulders and it really helps.
2. Don't know if anyone else does this, but I generally use a Bivy sac over my bag and thermarest even when inside my tent in the winter. It is just one extra layer of warmth that can really help.
3. Tent- What you are suggesting is very realative to your tent choice. If you have a 2+ season tent or a lighter 3 season and it gets cold enoughm, you will probalby survive but it will be a miserable night. If you have a 4 season tent, it makes a huge temperature difference and you would be fine. (it also helps to have partners in your tent. My 2+ person MTN hardware trango gets really warm with 3 relatively large guys. It also gets stinky!
4. Pee Bottle- This is the true secret to winter camping. You don't have to worry about drinking and having to debate whether to suffer a full bladder or brave the weather as much water as you want and it can really warm up those toes. I do recommend a different shape than your water source so they don't get confused at night. I got one of those Square Nalgene bottles so I can feel the difference. REI doesn't sell them anymore but MTN chalet in CS does. 32 oz gatorade bottles work as well.
5. Hand/toewarmers. My dollar is never better spent than these. I usually have enough for emergency as well as to throw on my toes if the night gets real cold.

I would think with what you have said, you will at a minimum survive the night and will probably be better than that.

If I didn't have to work that weekend, I would love to get out on this trip with the gang. I haven't had the opportunity to get out with the real experts yet and be part of the team. If I somehow come down with a "sickness" that weekend, I will let you guys know if I can come.