First 14er to succumb to the elements?

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Re: First 14er to succumb to the elements?

Postby Ross M G » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:44 am

Jim Davies wrote:The real question is, will the metric system completely take over first?



Bingo! I'm going to start a website called 4250ers.com

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Re: First 14er to succumb to the elements?

Postby xpda » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:41 pm

Scott P wrote:Although it probably won't be within our lifetimes, which do you think will be the first 14er to become a 13er by erosion?

Maybe it will go the other way: Which will be the first 13er will become a 14er by tectonic uplift?

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Re: First 14er to succumb to the elements?

Postby zdero1 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:55 pm

Regardless of change in elevation I still hope to complete the 58. One thing I am debating now is whether or not to add Sunlight Spire, as new systems of measurement place the Spire at 14k making it an unofficial 14er. Anyone else thinking of adding the Spire to their list?

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Re: First 14er to succumb to the elements?

Postby screeman57 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:26 pm

zdero1 wrote:Regardless of change in elevation I still hope to complete the 58. One thing I am debating now is whether or not to add Sunlight Spire, as new systems of measurement place the Spire at 14k making it an unofficial 14er. Anyone else thinking of adding the Spire to their list?


But there is still the topographic prominence issue with the Spire. If it were included, would it have the same status as El Diente, N. Maroon, Conundrum, N. Eolus, and... um, whatever?
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Re: First 14er to succumb to the elements?

Postby Neil » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:35 pm

screeman57 wrote:
zdero1 wrote:Regardless of change in elevation I still hope to complete the 58. One thing I am debating now is whether or not to add Sunlight Spire, as new systems of measurement place the Spire at 14k making it an unofficial 14er. Anyone else thinking of adding the Spire to their list?


But there is still the topographic prominence issue with the Spire. If it were included, would it have the same status as El Diente, N. Maroon, Conundrum, N. Eolus, and... um, whatever?


I see your point, but it would not have the same status as El Diente, N. Maroon, Conundrum, N. Eolus, or Cameron. Those peaks, while falling short of 300' of prominence, are named on USGS quads. "Sunlight Spire," based on my research, is not. So, it would not be added to the list of 58 (which is still pretty arbitrary -- I've never liked the idea of calling something a mountain just because a human named it), but relegated to the ranks of unranked, unnamed peaks like "West Evans," "South Elbert," or "Southeast Longs," among others.
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Re: First 14er to succumb to the elements?

Postby SilverLynx » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:35 pm

I would think something in the Elks would be the first to go, given the amount of rocks that fall off of them on a regular basis and the fact that they are not the tallest 14ers.
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Re: First 14er to succumb to the elements?

Postby zdero1 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:09 pm

Neil wrote:
screeman57 wrote:
zdero1 wrote:Regardless of change in elevation I still hope to complete the 58. One thing I am debating now is whether or not to add Sunlight Spire, as new systems of measurement place the Spire at 14k making it an unofficial 14er. Anyone else thinking of adding the Spire to their list?


But there is still the topographic prominence issue with the Spire. If it were included, would it have the same status as El Diente, N. Maroon, Conundrum, N. Eolus, and... um, whatever?


I see your point, but it would not have the same status as El Diente, N. Maroon, Conundrum, N. Eolus, or Cameron. Those peaks, while falling short of 300' of prominence, are named on USGS quads. "Sunlight Spire," based on my research, is not. So, it would not be added to the list of 58 (which is still pretty arbitrary -- I've never liked the idea of calling something a mountain just because a human named it), but relegated to the ranks of unranked, unnamed peaks like "West Evans," "South Elbert," or "Southeast Longs," among others.



Screeman- From Roach's book he states that the Spire would be in the same boat as Diente, N. Maroon, Conundrum, N. Eolus, and CAMERON (How could you forget Cameron!?!?!?! :shock: :D).

Neil or anyone else- Would the elevation change of Sunlight Spire warrant a re-classification to a named, unranked peak such as the 5 unofficial 14ers? Thanks in advance.

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Re: First 14er to succumb to the elements?

Postby screeman57 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:25 pm

zdero1 wrote:
Screeman- From Roach's book he states that the Spire would be in the same boat as Diente, N. Maroon, Conundrum, N. Eolus, and CAMERON (How could you forget Cameron!?!?!?! :shock: :D).


Oh, yeah! Cam... wait, what was it?
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Re: First 14er to succumb to the elements?

Postby ChrisRoberts » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:47 pm

zdero1 wrote:
Neil or anyone else- Would the elevation change of Sunlight Spire warrant a re-classification to a named, unranked peak such as the 5 unofficial 14ers? Thanks in advance.

Not without the USGS naming it.
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Re: First 14er to succumb to the elements?

Postby Neil » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:38 pm

Chris is right on. "Sunlight Spire" is an unofficial nickname that has become part of mountaineering vernacular over the years. For most folks, it is simply easier or more convenient to name a point on a ridge (a closed contour line in cartographic parlance) using the parent peak's name and some other descriptor instead of saying Point 14,001. Examples include "West Evans" and "Sunlight Spire." While these nicknames stick among climbers, they are just that: nicknames. You can tell an unofficial name from an official name by the presence of quotation marks around an unofficial. It is nearly universally accepted that the USGS gives peaks official names and naming an unnamed peak is a tough process -- in my humble opinion appropriately so. However, in a federally designated wilderness area, such as the Weminuche (where "Sunlight Spire" is located), naming a peak becomes almost impossible. The U.S. Board of Geographic Names (the USGS board responsible for christening names of peaks) does not name peaks in wilderness areas except for very rare exceptions that the "Spire" probably does not meet. So, long story short, "Sunlight Spire" does not have enough topographic prominence above its saddle with Sunlight to be ranked and don't expect its name to become official anytime soon. So, barring a massive geological event, it will never make the list of 53 ranked 14ers; and barring some odd political event, it will not join the list of unraned but named peaks. At the end of the day, make your own list! But the "Spire," despite the hype, will likely never join the list of 53, 54, or 58 that folks keep for various reasons. That said, while I will never consider the "Spire" anything but a bump on a ridge, I sure would love to climb it someday!

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Re: First 14er to succumb to the elements?

Postby Scott P » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:46 pm

Not without the USGS naming it.

While these nicknames stick among climbers, they are just that: nicknames. You can tell an unofficial name from an official name by the presence of quotation marks around an unofficial.


Just an observation, but it seems after a peak is labeled on maps (even non-USGS ones), it eventually loses it's quotation marks.

For example, most features on many NPS maps are un-named on USGS maps. Arches National Park is a prime example as is the Fisher Towers (outside any NP). None of the names of the major Fisher Towers are seen in quotation marks (at least the ones I've seen). After usage becomes common enough or starts appearing on maps (even non-USGS) ones, it seems that they eventually lose their quotations.

Even Denali doesn't exist on USGS maps, but you will seldom see the name in quotations. It seems that quotations are used for nicknames, but not for all peaks not appearing named on USGS maps. I don't know the "rules" of when a peak loses its quotation marks.

Can anyone else add to this observation?
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Re: First 14er to succumb to the elements?

Postby MrFrumpylane » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:44 pm

G&T would be my bet. While nature is known to shape the earth over time, humans do it faster!! Considering the cluster**** traffic that flows through Stevens Gulch and those silly (but kewl) 14er summit dance offs, those two summits will surely be whittled down by countless foot traffic ranging from vibrams to birkenstocks.

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