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Chances are, your co-worker will get to Crater Lake and say "F THAT!"

iholdthepain wrote:Chances are, your co-worker will get to Crater Lake and say "F THAT!"

I told him to try easier one's first, but he is dead set on doing them. I would offer to go with him, but I'm not anymore experienced lol.

rijaca wrote:

DoctorBreaks wrote: Agreed, I think one of the biggest reasons for accidents on mountains is lack of respect for them and an ever increasing confidence that there are "Easy" mountains to climb.

BS! Most of the fatalities occur to experienced climbers, and the ones I have known have had a very deep respect for them.

Here are two very recent examples, Sam who had no gear and very little experience which could've been fatal, and the young man who recently passed on Long's a few days ago with no equipment even though without crampons and an ax it would be extremely dangerous. How many stories are there of people not turning around when they know conditions are bad, how many of people climbing unequipped? I think you can find at least a LITTLE validity in my statement. There has been an increase in deaths and accidents on 14ers and a good reason why would be the growing number of people who climb and people who attempt to climb when they are not experienced enough or equipped for the climb. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I think we can all see that there are a lot of avoidable deaths that occur on mountains.

Of course there are avoidable deaths. We could all just lock ourselves in our homes, only drive under the best road conditions, and never get experience as mountaineers. My point is only that it's pointless to worry about all the unprepared people going into the mountains. There are so many, and they're all adults, free to expose themselves to whatever risks they choose.

Frappier is very lucky to be alive right now, However, as unprepared as he was and still made the route, it only makes sense that some more experienced mountaineers would think 'Well, if HE could do it..."

I think it's absurd for anyone to WANT to ascend the Camel route, with all that loose-looking junk up there, but as they say, "Different strokes for different folks."

mtree wrote:

dave_navy_VA wrote:

mtree wrote:Another recent tragedy on Longs only amplifies Frappier's UNBELIEVABLY LUCKY outcome. But it does not glorify it. Hope we can all gain some perspective from this sobering news.

I always like the 1st party recaps of a nonfatal mishap, like Frappier did here. It’s like flying - some new guys just have the right instincts, physical skill and spatial awareness to survive bad headwork while others with lots of hours and varied experience never “fly a nice airplane.” Frappier, with zero alpine and probably minimal backcountry experience navigated pretty well on a non-standard route and basically beat huge odds. I learned from a 19-year old and those that reconstructed his route (particularly Brian C) that I may try a route via the Camel next time. Most of my handful of Long’s ascents have been the usual standard route.

And this is the potentially worrisome outcome of Frappier's trek. Others will feel emboldened to attempt a climb they might otherwise not. (Dave_navy, I have no idea of your hiking/climbing skill or experience so this is not directed at you per se. Good luck and safe climbing!)

Good comments. With a risk management like any other I’ll take this route. Until 5 years ago, I was basically a very good aid climber and used to protection and solid partners on rather short climbs. Plenty of multi-day backcountry time, with summiting secondary to fishing.

Different animal than the attenuated and often multi-day runs we see here, summiting unaided for the most part. If your message is not acting on impulse- then it’s certainly on point. Not on my bang list next month, but a Camel run is looking pretty interesting. Found some of the presumptions about Frappier’s gear/clothing interesting. As if gearing up ~ you know what you are doing. Usually a good indicator, but only halfway. There is still the headwork factor.

There's a big distinction between locking yourself up and putting yourself in a bad position. We can use our experience and judgement to decide if a situation is beyond our abilities. For example seeing storm clouds and not turning around

DoctorBreaks wrote:I have a co worker who said as his first 14er he wants to do The Bells. This is the kind of behavior that people observe and say, "What the hell it can't be that bad!".

From what I've seen first hand (e.g. teach classes regarding risk management) is over-optimistic self-evaluation of skills not rooted in objective measurement. So a couch potato saying he can do the Bells because it "can't be that bad" is almost assuredly over, whereas someone who does 5k runs and climbs at the local rock wall (indoor or out) saying the same thing is likely correct. That's why I like lower risk litmus tests where you don't say whether they should one way or the other, rather present them with a sample challenge as an analogue -- if they can't pass the challenge, odds or they can't the larger project at their current skill level.

Frap' apparently loved endurance obstacle courses, so he had that going for him which with great snow conditions (binds rock, but foot pliable) "the planets aligned" and he almost pulled it off un-aided.

From what I've seen first hand (e.g. teach classes regarding risk management) is over-optimistic self-evaluation of skills not rooted in objective measurement. So a couch potato saying he can do the Bells because it "can't be that bad" is almost assuredly over, whereas someone who does 5k runs and climbs at the local rock wall (indoor or out) saying the same thing is likely correct. That's why I like lower risk litmus tests where you don't say whether they should one way or the other, rather present them with a sample challenge as an analogue -- if they can't pass the challenge, odds or they can't the larger project at their current skill level.

Frap' apparently loved endurance obstacle courses, so he had that going for him which with great snow conditions (binds rock, but foot pliable) "the planets aligned" and he almost pulled it off un-aided.[/quote]

Good point. For the physically fit the endurance part of climbing mountains is covered, but still there are a lot of valuable things that we learn from doing any activity repeatedly. Experience definitely helps and if Sam had been more experienced he may have done the route un aided.