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Would it kill you (pun not intended but it could save you) to carry 30m of skinny dynamic rope that can be quickly deployed with some webbing or a cam to protect highly exposed cruxes? WTF. I don’t understand why 1) nobody thinks they’ll fall in easy but exposed (4th cl) terrain 2) people who actually are cautious don’t just learn the ropes a little.

Guess hikers just don’t want to add that insurance when things get a little hairy.

Jorts wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:14 am
Guess hikers just don’t want to add that insurance when things get a little hairy.

I think a lot of people either 1. don't know how to use/rig rope/protection, 2. don't want to carry the extra weight or 3. don't think they'll need it so don't really consider bringing it...

Jorts wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:14 am Would it kill you (pun not intended but it could save you) to carry 30m of skinny dynamic rope that can be quickly deployed with some webbing or a cam to protect highly exposed cruxes? WTF. I don’t understand why 1) nobody thinks they’ll fall in easy but exposed (4th cl) terrain 2) people who actually are cautious don’t just learn the ropes a little.

Guess hikers just don’t want to add that insurance when things get a little hairy.

So honestly, up until yesterday, I had always thought of roped climbing as something that requires a lot of equipment/weight plus a lot of time/effort to setup and lots of time spent learning complex knots/hitches etc.

When you see basically no one in the mountains using rope, plus people talking about how rope can potentially lead to added rockfall, etc it's just kind of assumed that free solo is the way to go - just slowly building confidence/ability to do harder stuff has been my standard approach and seems to be the approach of the people I've been around.

But yesterday at the Flatirons SnowAlien was nice enough to give me an intro to rappelling using a very simplified but still fairly safe method that involved a 30m rope that was only 6mm or so thick using 2 carabiners to clip the rope/ATC for added friction. I was shocked at how small that rope packed down to and surprised how much quicker/easier her setup was than what I had learned at the gym. It seems most of the training at gyms and a lot of online videos put such an extremely heavy focus on safety (and understandably so) that it so greatly complicates things as to discourage people from even going down that road...

Obviously there are some trade-offs and that setup isn't good for all circumstances (SnowAlien did chat some about when the thicker ropes, friction hitches and other such things are more critical) but had I known earlier how much could be done with so little, I may not have blown off the idea of having some rope with me on climbs. Of course there's a big difference from the tree rappels that we did and doing a trad setup on the side of a mountain so I'm not about to run out there and go crazy but now I'm seeing new possibilities that I honestly didn't know existed before...

Just one small example - nearly every resource I found online suggested that for climbing/rappelling you need at least a 9mm rope, preferably 10-11mm and several sites suggested you should have at least a 60m rope or you'll severely limit your options. I'm sure they have their reasons for those suggestions but a rope like that would be such a monster that not many folks are going to be willing to lug that around unless it's truly essential.

I was honestly shocked that SnowAlien was using a 30m rope of only 6 something mm - but it was fine for our particular application.

If more of you folks who actually know what you're doing would realize that some of us have simply never encountered the methods you use and would take some folks under your wings, then maybe some more safety could be added to the mountains.

(Oh boy, this one may open an explosion of controversy about climbing methods - but I figure it's a topic with exploring...)

Jorts wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:14 am Would it kill you (pun not intended but it could save you) to carry 30m of skinny dynamic rope that can be quickly deployed with some webbing or a cam to protect highly exposed cruxes? WTF. I don’t understand why 1) nobody thinks they’ll fall in easy but exposed (4th cl) terrain 2) people who actually are cautious don’t just learn the ropes a little.

Guess hikers just don’t want to add that insurance when things get a little hairy.

Do accidents typically occur at cruxes?

My guess would be not, most are hyper-focused and aware of their movement at cruxes and thus less likely to trip or slip. I think the real danger is on the easier sections where there's a brief moment of complacency but still very-real danger.

Either way, I don't think there is a simple one-size-fits-all solution for accidents like these. Never will be.

jibler wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:20 pm in terms of risk management --

I've heard about so many deaths on capital I've scratched it off my list - and that was several years ago now.


just seems too sketchy - too many headlines


i was shocked to hear about the Sneffels fatality this year because I thought that was a relatively safe san juan one.

but my biggest risk factor is actually likely lightning as I am a perennial late starter and always skirting the edge on that stuff

I wonder if there are actually even more deaths on Longs than on Capitol. Yet many wouldn’t even bat an eye about climbing Longs Peak.

But yes, certain mountains have much higher incident rates than others, so that’s something to consider.

jibler wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:20 pmjust seems too sketchy - too many headlines

I don't consider it sketchy unless you get off route or go in bad conditions. It seems that most people who get in trouble fit in those two categories.

Little Bear seemed a lot more sketchy to me.

Scott P wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:33 am

jibler wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:20 pmjust seems too sketchy - too many headlines

I don't consider it sketchy unless you get off route or go in bad conditions. It seems that most people who get in trouble fit in those two categories.

Little Bear seemed a lot more sketchy to me.

Same for both, but that’s just my opinion.

Dave B wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:05 am

Jorts wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:14 am Would it kill you (pun not intended but it could save you) to carry 30m of skinny dynamic rope that can be quickly deployed with some webbing or a cam to protect highly exposed cruxes? WTF. I don’t understand why 1) nobody thinks they’ll fall in easy but exposed (4th cl) terrain 2) people who actually are cautious don’t just learn the ropes a little.

Guess hikers just don’t want to add that insurance when things get a little hairy.

Do accidents typically occur at cruxes?

My guess would be not, most are hyper-focused and aware of their movement at cruxes and thus less likely to trip or slip. I think the real danger is on the easier sections where there's a brief moment of complacency but still very-real danger.

Either way, I don't think there is a simple one-size-fits-all solution for accidents like these. Never will be.

Guess I didn't mean crux moves so much as a crux wall, crux down climb, etc.

daway8 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:48 am If more of you folks who actually know what you're doing would realize that some of us have simply never encountered the methods you use and would take some folks under your wings, then maybe some more safety could be added to the mountains.

Most are willing to teach. First, learn basics. Then learn how to apply the basics. Then learn how to improvise with what you have available. More often than not, there's more than one way to skin the cat.

I skied coin slot a few years back but my partner forgot to bring his 30m so we only had mine. Ended up tying a series of webbing, slings, and cordelette to the rope end as a pull strand and set up a single strand rappel. Not ideal, but it worked fine. Problem solving and making it work with what you have is mountaineering.

Jorts wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:26 pm

daway8 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:48 am If more of you folks who actually know what you're doing would realize that some of us have simply never encountered the methods you use and would take some folks under your wings, then maybe some more safety could be added to the mountains.

Most are willing to teach. First, learn basics. Then learn how to apply the basics. Then learn how to improvise with what you have available. More often than not, there's more than one way to skin the cat.

I skied coin slot a few years back but my partner forgot to bring his 30m so we only had mine. Ended up tying a series of webbing, slings, and cordelette to the rope end as a pull strand and set up a single strand rappel. Not ideal, but it worked fine. Problem solving and making it work with what you have is mountaineering.

So Daway, learn the basics and then tie some shoe strings together, add a rubber band or two, maybe a tow strap, and experiment off your banister or porch or something with a vertical/near vertical drop. See what happens. lol Be a problem solver!
I think learning the basics is a good start, as is going out on some climbs with someone you trust to learn from, and ask to be a part of the anchor building (when applicable, such as setting up TR's if you're in that type of environment) or at least ask your leader about the anchor they built and why they did it that way, etc.
But always look at the anchor that your life is dependent on.

Jorts, do you carry a rope on all your climbs?

d_baker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:41 pm So Daway, learn the basics and then tie some shoe strings together, add a rubber band or two, maybe a tow strap, and experiment off your banister or porch or something with a vertical/near vertical drop. See what happens. lol Be a problem solver!
I think learning the basics is a good start, as is going out on some climbs with someone you trust to learn from, and ask to be a part of the anchor building (when applicable, such as setting up TR's if you're in that type of environment) or at least ask your leader about the anchor they built and why they did it that way, etc.
But always look at the anchor that your life is dependent on.

Jorts, do you carry a rope on all your climbs?

No, I don't. Depends if I've done a route before, if not - the beta on it, am I in the dark on an area, could lack of a rope force me to have to turn around, is there a chance of rain making a return down climb more dangerous, solo vs with a partner, sometimes on SAR missions. I'm getting older and less bold so I like the idea of protecting routes I'd solo without hesitation in the past. Does it always work out that way? Definitely not.

Jorts wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:14 am Would it kill you (pun not intended but it could save you) to carry 30m of skinny dynamic rope that can be quickly deployed with some webbing or a cam to protect highly exposed cruxes? WTF. I don’t understand why 1) nobody thinks they’ll fall in easy but exposed (4th cl) terrain 2) people who actually are cautious don’t just learn the ropes a little.

Guess hikers just don’t want to add that insurance when things get a little hairy.

Jorts wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:22 pm

d_baker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:41 pm Jorts, do you carry a rope on all your climbs?

No, I don't. Depends if I've done a route before, if not - the beta on it, am I in the dark on an area, could lack of a rope force me to have to turn around, is there a chance of rain making a return down climb more dangerous, solo vs with a partner, sometimes on SAR missions. I'm getting older and less bold so I like the idea of protecting routes I'd solo without hesitation in the past. Does it always work out that way? Definitely not.

Well see, those two posts by you has me confused, which is easy to do anyway.
On one hand, you suggest hikers should carry a rope or at least learn the skills needed to have that option. But when do they know when to carry one? If they follow your second post, it appears as if a rope may not be needed if one has already done the route.
Why should that matter? Can an accident only happen if it's a new route to the hiker/climber? I don't think so.
As for the crux areas, one move or one area, same thing to me, I doubt most accidents happen at the same spot every time, so that is pointless (to me) to suggest whipping out a rope at cruxes, you know, because this is the spot everyone always falls from on this scrambling route.
If you're not carrying a rope on every mountain route you do, then maybe you think it's not possible that you could have an accident?

Rope debates on 14er/13er routes always pop up and there's no right/wrong answer, imo.
It's up to the individual(s) to make that type of decision before they go, and at those areas that give them pause. Assess and make the best informed decision you can with the options you have for yourself and your team, and understand the consequences.

I'm not a climber. I'm a hiker/scrambler. I've used ropes on a few peaks, but I rarely carry one or plan to unless there's known 5th class w/rappels and/or short pitches that I might want to rope up for.
I wish I climbed more frequently like I used to, because for me it can make a difference in my performance and comfort level when I'm on a scrambly peak. But I'm not immune to a fall, regardless how much I've been climbing (technical rock) or not. I accept those risks, but keep it in check as to what I "sign up" for.