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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:59 pm
by tomhauser108
Also the entire liability thing in this litigious country is disgusting and is a god damn joke. The article made note of a case where some guy "won" $7.3 mil because he crashed his bike on a trail that didn't have warning signs that something bad might happen if you crash your bike. Sickening.
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:00 pm
by montanahiker
Are any of these mountains being actively mined? If not, I wonder how much it would cost for CFI or a similar organization to purchase them.
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:01 pm
by amderr22
Ptglhs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:32 pm
How do they propose to enforce this? Only the Summits themselves are privately owned. It's National Forest land from kite Lake Campground up quite a ways. Unless they're going to hire guards and post them over 13,000 feet I don't see this working out so well. Alternatively, if they somehow got the forest service to close the campground and to get the gate closed low enough down that tow trucks could actually haul cars away that might provide some enforcement mechanism.
PLEASE respect the closure. Multiple groups are working on finding a solution, including the CMC, CFI, Forest Service, and state DNR, but if trespassing continues it will make our job that much harder!
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:01 pm
by tomhauser108
climbingcue wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:59 pm
Have the owners take off the top 173 feet of Bross then no one will care. It will be climbed only by a fraction of people.
Well that could set a terrible precedent...that seems like exactly something who owns a mine on a mountain top would love to do.
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:10 pm
by Ptglhs
amderr22 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:01 pm
PLEASE respect the closure. Multiple groups are working on finding a solution, including the CMC, CFI, Forest Service, and state DNR, but if trespassing continues it will make our job that much harder!
The idea of people 'owning' land is anathema to me. Faceless corporations even more so. People don't even fully own it. It would be more fair to say we've purchased, or inherited, non-interference from others when we take certain actions on land which falls within certain arbitrary boundaries. Any rule only works if enough people agree to follow and enforce it. We're all free to choose otherwise. The best thing would be if a few hundred people a day didn't respect the closure. They can't kill us all.
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:18 pm
by Scott P
montanahiker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:00 pm
Are any of these mountains being actively mined? If not, I wonder how much it would cost for CFI or a similar organization to purchase them.
A while ago it was decided that the town of Alma would lease the land from the owners, but I don't know what ever happened to that.
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:21 pm
by amderr22
Scott P wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:18 pm
montanahiker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:00 pm
Are any of these mountains being actively mined? If not, I wonder how much it would cost for CFI or a similar organization to purchase them.
A while ago it was decided that the town of Alma would lease the land from the owners, but I don't know what ever happened to that.
The town Is still leasing it - however the theory was that their governmental immunity protected them from a lawsuit. A recent lawsuit in CO Springs against the Air Force Academy resulted in a $7 million payout because of a bike accident on a trail that had washed out, and the owners didn't put up a sign or fence. So that kinda demonstrated that the governmental protection was inadequate.
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:28 pm
by mtn_nut
tomhauser108 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:59 pm
Also the entire liability thing in this litigious country is disgusting and is a god damn joke. The article made note of a case where some guy "won" $7.3 mil because he crashed his bike on a trail that didn't have warning signs that something bad might happen if you crash your bike. Sickening.
https://www.westword.com/news/horrific- ... r-11232411 - some more context. Essentially, the air force academy knew it was being used, and knew there was damage, but didn't do anything about it. The guy also suffered severe brain trauma from the massive fall, knocked unconscious for a long period of time.
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:32 pm
by amderr22
Ptglhs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:59 pm
I think the author is incorrect that Kite Lake is private.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsin ... Campground
I also just talked to someone at the south park ranger district station who confirmed that the campground is on FS land and managed by the town of Alma. The person I spoke with said that while legal access to the summits of those peaks could be deemed closed by a private entity the public right of way to kite lake would still be in effect. The gate is closed (and opened, and owned) by the FS, not Earth Energy Resources. So again, I don't know how this group plans to enforce this. I wish Colorado would revise its liability statutes for landowners who allow public access through their land so this whole thing would be moot.
The Campground is on forest service land - the parking lot just south of it is on private land. You can actually find the claim markers in the parking lot if you know where to look. Here is a property map - you can see the claim right below the campground. So you can drive out to the gate and park, but you cannot park along the access road - I think. The property owners were planning on selling this land back - but I think for the time being it is still private. This is not the first time this has happened - in 2004 they closed it too, it has precedent.
- Screen Shot 2021-04-29 at 4.31.10 PM.png (690.74 KiB) Viewed 3421 times
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:34 pm
by Chicago Transplant
amderr22 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:21 pm
Scott P wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:18 pm
montanahiker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:00 pm
Are any of these mountains being actively mined? If not, I wonder how much it would cost for CFI or a similar organization to purchase them.
A while ago it was decided that the town of Alma would lease the land from the owners, but I don't know what ever happened to that.
The town Is still leasing it - however the theory was that their governmental immunity protected them from a lawsuit. A recent lawsuit in CO Springs against the Air Force Academy resulted in a $7 million payout because of a bike accident on a trail that had washed out, and the owners didn't put up a sign or fence. So that kinda demonstrated that the governmental protection was inadequate.
So what happens when CDOT or a local Road and Bridge department doesn't fix a pot hole on say US 6 through town and someone falls on their bike? Close all roads to bikes everywhere? I feel bad the guy had a serious injury, but that's the risk you take. Ski areas have a very ski-area-generous set of laws protecting them. Hit a tree? Your fault. Hit a lift tower? Your fault. Unmarked rock on a trail? Too bad, your fault. The basic gist of it is that skiing has inherent risks and you should know that, not the ski areas' responsibilities to mark everything. Should be the same for hiking, biking and any other pursuit. Washed out trails are an inherent risk.
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:36 pm
by BillMiddlebrook
Ah, yes, the last time we did this was in the 2000’s and we had so much fun! Seems like yesterday.
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:37 pm
by PJ88
justiner wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:22 pmsign.jpg
Cameron is still a go!