Hiking trainer

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benlen
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Re: Hiking trainer

Post by benlen »

mgl45 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:52 pm I get the sense that while he can help me through specific injuries like PFS after they happen, he's kind of guessing when it come to preventative training. That's why I started thinking getting a hiking trainer in the mix might be beneficial.
Here's my routine, drilled into me by my trainer. I do this 5-6 times a week:

Foam Roll IT band (both legs) and quads, four-five minutes each. If this is painful for you, that means you just need to do it until it no longer is.

Foam roll your glutes (a hard softball or specific, hard exercise ball is best) for each side of your butt, 4-5 minutes each.


^Amongst some other Colorado mountain town guys who have had PFS, those who kick it are the ones who foam roll. Those who don't often still have it. It's foundational to everything I do to keep my lower body limber, and keep muscles firing and activated correctly.

From there, a physical trainer or PT can prescribe certain types of squats, core exercises, etc, but in my experience with PFS, if I don't foam roll, it comes back. That's the most important thing. I just got back from a big trip to the PNW, hiked 10-20 mile days, and knee was in badass condition. Foam roll + strength training with a trainer will get you there.
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Re: Hiking trainer

Post by dan0rama »

When you say you were diagnosed with PFS, I assume you've been to an orthopedics surgeon and had a MRI.

Working with a trainer on sports specific conditioning is the route I took to get myself back in shape after recovering from shoulder/knee issues that handicapped me for almost 2 years. But I don't think you need to find someone who's experienced with hiking or Colorado. You just need a trainer who works with athletes. The one I used in Denver works mostly with student athletes looking to go pro. If you live near a major city in Wisconsin, I'd think you should be able to find a gym with that focus. Just google sports performance, sports rehab, sports coaching, etc. If you lived in Denver, these are the types of placed I'd recommend:

https://elitespeedsp.com/pages/total-pe ... ry-program
https://www.nextlevelsppt.com/our-services/
https://teamspeedco.com/Our-Facility
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mgl45
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Re: Hiking trainer

Post by mgl45 »

benlen wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:34 am
Dave B wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:35 am
justiner wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:08 pm Don't need to touch a weight, unless it's for PT.
I agree with everything Justin said, except for this. Strength training is exceptionally effective at preventing and eliminating overuse injuries such as PT syndrome. It also makes the body more resilient to stress and faster to recover from hard efforts. The scientific literature is pretty much unequivocal on this.
I'll echo this. My trainer's regimen for tackling PFS is first to get muscles firing correctly again, THEN strength training. If you dive straight into strength training without addressing gets the muscles firing correctly, you can injure yourself, but afterwards, you can build up badass strength in your glutes and quads in particular, which will keep your knee aligned correctly on long hikes.
Thanks for the additional reply!

Could you elaborate on what "getting the muscles firing correctly" refers to? Is that what the foam rolling does? I haven't heard my PT use that terminology.
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Re: Hiking trainer

Post by mgl45 »

dan0rama wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:42 pm When you say you were diagnosed with PFS, I assume you've been to an orthopedics surgeon and had a MRI.

Working with a trainer on sports specific conditioning is the route I took to get myself back in shape after recovering from shoulder/knee issues that handicapped me for almost 2 years. But I don't think you need to find someone who's experienced with hiking or Colorado. You just need a trainer who works with athletes. The one I used in Denver works mostly with student athletes looking to go pro. If you live near a major city in Wisconsin, I'd think you should be able to find a gym with that focus. Just google sports performance, sports rehab, sports coaching, etc. If you lived in Denver, these are the types of placed I'd recommend:

https://elitespeedsp.com/pages/total-pe ... ry-program
https://www.nextlevelsppt.com/our-services/
https://teamspeedco.com/Our-Facility
Thanks for the recommendations!

Yes, I was diagnosed by an orthopedic physician. He was pretty sure it was PFS before the MRI and then he did the MRI to confirm it.
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benlen
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Re: Hiking trainer

Post by benlen »

mgl45 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:34 pm
benlen wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:34 am
Dave B wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:35 am

I agree with everything Justin said, except for this. Strength training is exceptionally effective at preventing and eliminating overuse injuries such as PT syndrome. It also makes the body more resilient to stress and faster to recover from hard efforts. The scientific literature is pretty much unequivocal on this.
I'll echo this. My trainer's regimen for tackling PFS is first to get muscles firing correctly again, THEN strength training. If you dive straight into strength training without addressing gets the muscles firing correctly, you can injure yourself, but afterwards, you can build up badass strength in your glutes and quads in particular, which will keep your knee aligned correctly on long hikes.
Thanks for the additional reply!

Could you elaborate on what "getting the muscles firing correctly" refers to? Is that what the foam rolling does? I haven't heard my PT use that terminology.
Sure, that's because (and this gets into a larger debate of physical therapists vs athletic trainers) physical therapists (typically, in my experience) take a different approach to PFS than athletic trainers do. In that a lot of PTs legitimately aren't familiar really with the problem. Many PTs spend more time doing post-op stuff, which doesn't help those of us cursed with PFS.

I went through the same process you did––orthopedic surgeon, MRI, the diagnosis, except that I was referred to an athletic trainer over PTs, because PTs in my case didn't really know how to tackle my problem. It really varies PT to PT. But it was a PT who said "That's bizarre, here's a brace, you probably won't ski again."

It was an athletic trainer who said, "That's bulls**t, follow my program, you'll ski again."

In my case, my right knee was the one with PFS.

A big part of the problem was that my right glute (the entire muscle) was knotted up. If I foam rolled my right glute a few years ago, it was extremely painful.

That pain/muscle being all knotted up was indicative of a larger problem, that the muscle wasn't firing/activating when performing exercises that mimicked what happens when hiking/skiing. The glute literally was not working while walking, hiking, or skiing.

The glute is largely responsible for stabilizing your knee, along with your quad.

So if one of those muscles isn't working, BOOM, suddenly you have mal tracking and patella pain problems, because your knee is going all over the place while engaged in dynamic activities like hiking.

Both glute and quad need to work together properly to keep your knee healthy and your knee cap aligned.

What foam rolling does is keep your muscles loose, limber, and healthy, so that they'll be in the best default shape to do their jobs. Foam rolling promotes faster muscle recovery after big days in the hills.

I started from a place for weeks and weeks of foam rolling everyday, and minimal strength training. Only after my trainer saw I wasn't experiencing discomfort from foam rolling did we begin strength training, doing specific exercises to get my glute to fire again, and gradually, to then strengthen the quad and glute to stabilize the knee.

Donny LeBlanc is known as a Jedi Master/genius in the Vail Colorado area for his program that specifically tackles PFS, and he preaches what I've tried to explain above. Being from out of state, it probably would be difficult/impossible to see him, but if you're in Colorado at some point and serious about tackling this problem, he's the guy.
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mgl45
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Re: Hiking trainer

Post by mgl45 »

benlen wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:20 pm
mgl45 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:34 pm
benlen wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:34 am

I'll echo this. My trainer's regimen for tackling PFS is first to get muscles firing correctly again, THEN strength training. If you dive straight into strength training without addressing gets the muscles firing correctly, you can injure yourself, but afterwards, you can build up badass strength in your glutes and quads in particular, which will keep your knee aligned correctly on long hikes.
Thanks for the additional reply!

Could you elaborate on what "getting the muscles firing correctly" refers to? Is that what the foam rolling does? I haven't heard my PT use that terminology.
Sure, that's because (and this gets into a larger debate of physical therapists vs athletic trainers) physical therapists (typically, in my experience) take a different approach to PFS than athletic trainers do. In that a lot of PTs legitimately aren't familiar really with the problem. Many PTs spend more time doing post-op stuff, which doesn't help those of us cursed with PFS.

I went through the same process you did––orthopedic surgeon, MRI, the diagnosis, except that I was referred to an athletic trainer over PTs, because PTs in my case didn't really know how to tackle my problem. It really varies PT to PT. But it was a PT who said "That's bizarre, here's a brace, you probably won't ski again."

It was an athletic trainer who said, "That's bulls**t, follow my program, you'll ski again."

In my case, my right knee was the one with PFS.

A big part of the problem was that my right glute (the entire muscle) was knotted up. If I foam rolled my right glute a few years ago, it was extremely painful.

That pain/muscle being all knotted up was indicative of a larger problem, that the muscle wasn't firing/activating when performing exercises that mimicked what happens when hiking/skiing. The glute literally was not working while walking, hiking, or skiing.

The glute is largely responsible for stabilizing your knee, along with your quad.

So if one of those muscles isn't working, BOOM, suddenly you have mal tracking and patella pain problems, because your knee is going all over the place while engaged in dynamic activities like hiking.

Both glute and quad need to work together properly to keep your knee healthy and your knee cap aligned.

What foam rolling does is keep your muscles loose, limber, and healthy, so that they'll be in the best default shape to do their jobs. Foam rolling promotes faster muscle recovery after big days in the hills.

I started from a place for weeks and weeks of foam rolling everyday, and minimal strength training. Only after my trainer saw I wasn't experiencing discomfort from foam rolling did we begin strength training, doing specific exercises to get my glute to fire again, and gradually, to then strengthen the quad and glute to stabilize the knee.

Donny LeBlanc is known as a Jedi Master/genius in the Vail Colorado area for his program that specifically tackles PFS, and he preaches what I've tried to explain above. Being from out of state, it probably would be difficult/impossible to see him, but if you're in Colorado at some point and serious about tackling this problem, he's the guy.
Got it, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the additional information.


I wonder if my situation may be a bit different. I've had problems with muscle tightness in my neck and am familiar with the feeling, and I'm not feeling anything like that in my legs. I've been doing goblet squats for several months, currently with a 20lb kettle bell in front and a 15lb hiking pack on my back without problems, which I'd imagine would cause problems if my leg muscles were knotted up.

Did you know your glute was knotted up or is that something the trainer identified and determined?
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benlen
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Re: Hiking trainer

Post by benlen »

mgl45 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:36 pm
benlen wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:20 pm
mgl45 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:34 pm

Thanks for the additional reply!

Could you elaborate on what "getting the muscles firing correctly" refers to? Is that what the foam rolling does? I haven't heard my PT use that terminology.
Sure, that's because (and this gets into a larger debate of physical therapists vs athletic trainers) physical therapists (typically, in my experience) take a different approach to PFS than athletic trainers do. In that a lot of PTs legitimately aren't familiar really with the problem. Many PTs spend more time doing post-op stuff, which doesn't help those of us cursed with PFS.

I went through the same process you did––orthopedic surgeon, MRI, the diagnosis, except that I was referred to an athletic trainer over PTs, because PTs in my case didn't really know how to tackle my problem. It really varies PT to PT. But it was a PT who said "That's bizarre, here's a brace, you probably won't ski again."

It was an athletic trainer who said, "That's bulls**t, follow my program, you'll ski again."

In my case, my right knee was the one with PFS.

A big part of the problem was that my right glute (the entire muscle) was knotted up. If I foam rolled my right glute a few years ago, it was extremely painful.

That pain/muscle being all knotted up was indicative of a larger problem, that the muscle wasn't firing/activating when performing exercises that mimicked what happens when hiking/skiing. The glute literally was not working while walking, hiking, or skiing.

The glute is largely responsible for stabilizing your knee, along with your quad.

So if one of those muscles isn't working, BOOM, suddenly you have mal tracking and patella pain problems, because your knee is going all over the place while engaged in dynamic activities like hiking.

Both glute and quad need to work together properly to keep your knee healthy and your knee cap aligned.

What foam rolling does is keep your muscles loose, limber, and healthy, so that they'll be in the best default shape to do their jobs. Foam rolling promotes faster muscle recovery after big days in the hills.

I started from a place for weeks and weeks of foam rolling everyday, and minimal strength training. Only after my trainer saw I wasn't experiencing discomfort from foam rolling did we begin strength training, doing specific exercises to get my glute to fire again, and gradually, to then strengthen the quad and glute to stabilize the knee.

Donny LeBlanc is known as a Jedi Master/genius in the Vail Colorado area for his program that specifically tackles PFS, and he preaches what I've tried to explain above. Being from out of state, it probably would be difficult/impossible to see him, but if you're in Colorado at some point and serious about tackling this problem, he's the guy.
Got it, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the additional information.


I wonder if my situation may be a bit different. I've had problems with muscle tightness in my neck and am familiar with the feeling, and I'm not feeling anything like that in my legs. I've been doing goblet squats for several months, currently with a 20lb kettle bell in front and a 15lb hiking pack on my back without problems, which I'd imagine would cause problems if my leg muscles were knotted up.

Did you know your glute was knotted up or is that something the trainer identified and determined?
My trainer Donny LeBlanc identified and determined this. Also, being able to perform certain exercises without pain doesn't mean it isn't a problem––you'd be amazed at the # of clients of his i've seen (including Leadville 100 guys) who end up almost crying as he does massage/foam rolling to them with additional pressure (for example, using his own body weight pressing his knee into your glute or quad.)

The muscle imbalance/tightness issue can manifest in guys who seem remarkably limber.
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Re: Hiking trainer

Post by mgl45 »

benlen wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:00 pm
mgl45 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:36 pm
benlen wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:20 pm
Got it, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the additional information.


I wonder if my situation may be a bit different. I've had problems with muscle tightness in my neck and am familiar with the feeling, and I'm not feeling anything like that in my legs. I've been doing goblet squats for several months, currently with a 20lb kettle bell in front and a 15lb hiking pack on my back without problems, which I'd imagine would cause problems if my leg muscles were knotted up.

Did you know your glute was knotted up or is that something the trainer identified and determined?
My trainer Donny LeBlanc identified and determined this. Also, being able to perform certain exercises without pain doesn't mean it isn't a problem––you'd be amazed at the # of clients of his i've seen (including Leadville 100 guys) who end up almost crying as he does massage/foam rolling to them with additional pressure (for example, using his own body weight pressing his knee into your glute or quad.)

The muscle imbalance/tightness issue can manifest in guys who seem remarkably limber.
Good to know, thanks!
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Re: Hiking trainer

Post by dan0rama »

I agree with what Benlen has been saying. Cant say for sure, but working on my glutes and getting sports therapy massage on my quads and hams might have been the solution for me. If you work a desk job, so you are sitting all day, chances are your problem is glutes too. Aka dead butt syndrome. Physical therapists are good for massages though.
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Re: Hiking trainer

Post by mgl45 »

dan0rama wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:02 am I agree with what Benlen has been saying. Cant say for sure, but working on my glutes and getting sports therapy massage on my quads and hams might have been the solution for me. If you work a desk job, so you are sitting all day, chances are your problem is glutes too. Aka dead butt syndrome. Physical therapists are good for massages though.
Thanks for the advice!
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