Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

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Re: Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

Post by XterraRob » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:06 pm

cottonmountaineering wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:50 am
the big 2020 fires burned with enough intensity to turn the soil into dust, not sure how well any of that will recover
We're going to have another Sand Dune Park in Colorado.
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Re: Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

Post by SkiFree » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:14 pm

Where do you find information pertaining to how hot each forest fire burned?

I was hoping the fast pace if the east troublesome fire would have kept the fire to the tree tops but it sounds like that wasn't the case.

With our historical mismanagement of forest and their fires was there any other solution to our forest other than a series of massive forest fires to reset the natural balance
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Re: Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

Post by ekalina » Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:01 pm

Often those types of assessments (e.g., burn severity) come later. Satellites do provide estimates of fire radiative power on a daily basis, but there are accuracy limitations and the estimates are relatively coarse (around 1 km x 1 km boxes).

Here is an example of a post-burn assessment of the Hayman fire's severity:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_ME ... 031419.jpg

I also found some information about how this type of product is generated. Really interesting.
https://fsapps.nwcg.gov/baer/home
https://fsapps.nwcg.gov/baer/about-barc-faq
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Re: Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

Post by prairiechicken » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:13 pm

Historically, there were not dense forests in the Colorado foothills, instead there were a combination of large meadows and small patches of open ponderosa pine. Dense forests were limited to north slopes and high elevations. In a way, these burn scars could be more natural than the forest that was there before.
As for the high elevations, I'm hopeful. Lodgepole pine and aspen can do very well in these areas. And many of these fires burned in sort of a mosaic. There are many patches of living trees within both of the major fires' perimeters, which are particularly visible on current satellite imagery with the snow. The recent fires in the San Juans (West Fork and 416 for example) are already quite lush. The Fern Lake fire scar in RMNP was also recovering well, at least before parts of it burned again a few days ago.
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Re: Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

Post by jibler » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:21 pm

yes I was pointing this out earlier


I am guessing there was a friggin INFERNO going on up by stillwater pass NW of granby. I had been camping up there 2 yrs ago and was struck by the rather unhealthy forest - very dense with trees.

and i was tracking the fire icons on the air.now website live at the time too - they were clustered there pretty good.
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Re: Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

Post by matt_foco » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:42 pm

With the intensity of these fires and climate change, unfortunately they will in most of the scar areas. It got really really hot up there, a lot of the pictures are just scorched earth, not a single green thing in site. As one with family property on the edge of the west fork complex fire burn area (papoose section) I hold out hope the aspens will take over like they have down there.
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Re: Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

Post by SkiFree » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:21 pm

Thanks for the info ekalina, that makes sense that they have to do some, on the ground research, to get concrete numbers and you bring up great points prairiechicken, the past fires have done a wonderful job at creating some of the meadows we still enjoy today.

What would people rather have, an unhealthy forest or a forest fire

I'm extremely sad to hear about the lost lives and the destruction of personal property but as for me, not a single tear is shed for the forest affected by the fire. It is just a blip in the rader when considering the lifespan of a forest.


Fire is as natural as the beautiful trees it burns, but its our past obsession with stopping forest fires that has gotten us to this point. We need to learn to live with forest fires since they are a natural part of our landscape
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Re: Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

Post by thatmushroom » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:38 pm

Piggybacking on ekalina, one of the major concerns post-fire is dirt moving downhill into places that we humans don't want to have that much dirt. Fires strip out the vegetation and change the soil chemistry in ways that make it much easier for dirt to move downhill, and often enough there's infrastructure right at the bottom. Denver Water bussed employees in from the city after the Hayman fire to put in emergency erosion control measures, and still had to spend millions dredging the reservoir.

https://coloradosun.com/2020/08/19/griz ... ern-water/

Part of the BAER response from the USGS is calculating the likelihood that there will be a lot of dirt and rocks moving downhill in rainstorms of a given size. Clicking through to the assessments show maps for debris flow likelihood for sites like the Grizzly Creek fire. That one seemingly had a high chance of dropping a lot of debris onto I-70, but we just haven't had a rainstorm of a sufficient intensity. One of the few small mercies of the dry spell the past couple of months.
https://www.usgs.gov/natural-hazards/la ... _objects=0#
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Re: Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

Post by timstich » Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:51 am

Since forests have been burning for eons, much longer than humans have walked the earth, I think it's safe to say they will grow back and then burn down again over and over. You have to get to where you accept this as part of the life of the forest. I do a lot of climbing in the Haymen Fire area and find it oddly beautiful. I have also enjoyed watching the Waldo Canyon fire scar begin to regrow, which is going on six years or so now. One thing with burned up forests is that you can see the underlying rock faces and topography that was once hidden by the forest canopy. Most forests are adapted to this burn cycle and some seeds lie dormant until a fire comes along clearing out the canopy and letting sunlight in for the seedlings.
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Re: Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

Post by CaptCO » Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:56 am

timstich wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:51 am
Since forests have been burning for eons, much longer than humans have walked the earth, I think it's safe to say they will grow back and then burn down again over and over. You have to get to where you accept this as part of the life of the forest. I do a lot of climbing in the Haymen Fire area and find it oddly beautiful. I have also enjoyed watching the Waldo Canyon fire scar begin to regrow, which is going on six years or so now. One thing with burned up forests is that you can see the underlying rock faces and topography that was once hidden by the forest canopy. Most forests are adapted to this burn cycle and some seeds lie dormant until a fire comes along clearing out the canopy and letting sunlight in for the seedlings.
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Re: Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

Post by Vincopotamus » Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:13 pm

CaptCO wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:56 am
timstich wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:51 am
Since forests have been burning for eons, much longer than humans have walked the earth, I think it's safe to say they will grow back and then burn down again over and over. You have to get to where you accept this as part of the life of the forest. I do a lot of climbing in the Haymen Fire area and find it oddly beautiful. I have also enjoyed watching the Waldo Canyon fire scar begin to regrow, which is going on six years or so now. One thing with burned up forests is that you can see the underlying rock faces and topography that was once hidden by the forest canopy. Most forests are adapted to this burn cycle and some seeds lie dormant until a fire comes along clearing out the canopy and letting sunlight in for the seedlings.
Caveman mentality
I might be missing something, but care to explain the Neanderthal psychology bit?
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Re: Dl you think new fires will leave burns scars like Buffalo and Hayman?

Post by CaptCO » Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:24 pm

Vincopotamus wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:13 pm
CaptCO wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:56 am
timstich wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:51 am
Since forests have been burning for eons, much longer than humans have walked the earth, I think it's safe to say they will grow back and then burn down again over and over. You have to get to where you accept this as part of the life of the forest. I do a lot of climbing in the Haymen Fire area and find it oddly beautiful. I have also enjoyed watching the Waldo Canyon fire scar begin to regrow, which is going on six years or so now. One thing with burned up forests is that you can see the underlying rock faces and topography that was once hidden by the forest canopy. Most forests are adapted to this burn cycle and some seeds lie dormant until a fire comes along clearing out the canopy and letting sunlight in for the seedlings.
Caveman mentality
I might be missing something, but care to explain the Neanderthal psychology bit?
Arguing on this forum is worse than beating a dead horse. I prefer short replies
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