SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Discussion area for peaks outside of the USA
Forum rules
Please do not use this forum to advertise, sell photos or other products or promote a commercial website. For more details, please see the Terms of Use you agreed to when joining the forum.
User avatar
spiderman
Posts: 803
Joined: 9/26/2011
14ers: 58 3
13ers: 26
Trip Reports (1)

Re: SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Post by spiderman » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:55 am

mtn_nut wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:47 pm
Its not like Andrew Hamilton's record doesn't count because he didn't tag E and NE Crestone or South Elbert, or Sunlight Spire since it might have 300' of prominance AND might be above 14,000' with the newest USGS datum. I don't think Andrew included North Massive in the Summer 14er record, even though North Massive is included in the Winter 14er record.
None of those peaks have 300' of prominence, although speed records often have lists that are selected for historical reasons instead of topography. Anyway, SeanO is amazing and I am wishing him the best in this audacious endeavor.
seano
Posts: 510
Joined: 6/9/2010
14ers: 56
13ers: 131
Trip Reports (3)
Contact:

Re: SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Post by seano » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:19 am

Scott P wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:49 am
mtn_nut wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:05 am
This summer, he has decided he is going to try to set a fastest known time (FKT) for the self supported climb of all the 4000m peaks of the Alps this summer, biking between all of the peaks.

If anyone is interested in following along, there is some more information about his plan here on the attempt - http://www.drdirtbag.com/2020/03/05/hum ... peaks-fkt/
Which list is he using by chance? There are a lot of 4000 alpine peak list out there and they all use different numbers of peaks.

His link says the following, but it doesn't say which list he is using:

The UIAA list contains 82 4000-meter “peaks.” However, many of these are minor sub-summits included for subjective reasons. Using a threshhold of 100 meters prominence, there are 50 Alpine 4000-meter peaks. See Wikipedia for more.

Anyway, good luck to him on his endevour.
Sorry, I should have been clear about that: I'm going for the 50 prominent peaks. If it were just a matter or one or two traditional unranked peaks, like El Diente and North Maroon, I'd use the UIAA list, but their 82 include some truly ridiculous bumps, e.g. Punta Giordani, with its 5 meters of prominence and 100 meters of isolation from the next-highest summit.

I agonized about this, since some of the peaks not meeting the arbitrary threshold are legit, e.g. Nordend and the other Lyskamm summit. Based on the FKT site, there is a history of climbing both the UIAA 82 and the "principle" summits, so I feel justified in going for the latter. I think a self-powered, self-supported climb of the principle summits is elegant and manageable. For whatever reasons, the rules around this record aren't as well-established as those around CO records.
TomPierce
Posts: 2459
Joined: 11/21/2007
14ers: List not added
Trip Reports (2)

Re: SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Post by TomPierce » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:43 am

Good luck, seano! An impressive undertaking for sure.

-Tom
User avatar
Monster5
Posts: 1677
Joined: 8/7/2009
14ers: 58 30
13ers: 284 51
Trip Reports (27)
Contact:

Re: SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Post by Monster5 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:19 am

The rules and established records seem pretty clear. The "principle summits" still included a list of 75/82 as mentioned here. This used 35 m prominence and was established before the UIAA 82 list, rather than after establishment as you are proposing. I haven't seen a precedent for a new 50/82 list based on replacing one locally-established subjective system with another subjective system from an entirely different continent with prominence criteria relaxed by ~3x and a 40% reduction in peaks.

I realize that peakbagger enthusiasts seem to be editing Wikipedia lists to match their goal posts and referencing back to said Peakbagger, but UIAA seems more applicable for the Alps. I've seen others define it as "summit" = 30 m prominence, "mountain" = 300 m prominence. Imagine if Killian Jornet came to Colorado, climbed all of our 14ers with 300 m prominence (30/58 peaks), then claimed the 14ers FKT. That seems an appropriate comparison, if an illogical application of metric/imperial units there (ironically similar to applying our 300 ft rule/ 100 m proxy to 4000ers).

To be clear on the self supported - the Alps' extensive helicopter-supplied mountain hut system is fair game, including all food, water, sleeping accommodations, etc? Are there any huts you would consider off limits, e.g. Cosmiques, Torina, Boccallate and others serving as essentially aid stations halfway up?

Would you say the only real differences between your attempt and prior attempts include:
1. No support vehicle off the mountain (hut support okay)

This justifies redefining the accomplishment as follows?
1. 50 summits instead of 82 or even 75 principle summits

Now, I don't mean for my comments to come off as critical and fully realize this forum's propensity for backlash. But when published "FKT" and asking for public support ($) components come into the picture, I think it is important to be exceedingly clear about one's criteria and true differences from like events.
seano wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:19 am
Sorry, I should have been clear about that: I'm going for the 50 prominent peaks. If it were just a matter or one or two traditional unranked peaks, like El Diente and North Maroon, I'd use the UIAA list, but their 82 include some truly ridiculous bumps, e.g. Punta Giordani, with its 5 meters of prominence and 100 meters of isolation from the next-highest summit.

I agonized about this, since some of the peaks not meeting the arbitrary threshold are legit, e.g. Nordend and the other Lyskamm summit. Based on the FKT site, there is a history of climbing both the UIAA 82 and the "principle" summits, so I feel justified in going for the latter. I think a self-powered, self-supported climb of the principle summits is elegant and manageable. For whatever reasons, the rules around this record aren't as well-established as those around CO records.
"The road to alpine climbing is pocked and poorly marked, ending at an unexpectedly closed gate 5 miles from the trailhead." - MP user Beckerich
User avatar
justiner
Posts: 3490
Joined: 8/28/2010
14ers: 58 4
13ers: 138
Trip Reports (28)
Contact:

Re: SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Post by justiner » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:33 pm

Monster5 wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:19 am
To be clear on the self supported - the Alps' extensive helicopter-supplied mountain hut system is fair game, including all food, water, sleeping accommodations, etc? Are there any huts you would consider off limits, e.g. Cosmiques, Torina, Boccallate and others serving as essentially aid stations halfway up?
SeanO, you should write all your rules down, but for the above IMHO, anything that's commercially available to others is fair game. Forgoing using huts even to just sleep in sounds unrealistic. You can use the rules I wrote for my stuff as a guideline, although there may be some specifics to the Alps/Europe that would things different. It's a more civilized place, I hear :)
User avatar
FireOnTheMountain
Posts: 1091
Joined: 2/28/2011
14ers: 53 1 23
13ers: 268 39
Trip Reports (23)

Re: SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Post by FireOnTheMountain » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:30 pm

Sick
Everyday is a G r A t E f U L Day here in the ID...?
seano
Posts: 510
Joined: 6/9/2010
14ers: 56
13ers: 131
Trip Reports (3)
Contact:

Re: SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Post by seano » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:28 pm

justiner wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:33 pm
Monster5 wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:19 am
To be clear on the self supported - the Alps' extensive helicopter-supplied mountain hut system is fair game, including all food, water, sleeping accommodations, etc? Are there any huts you would consider off limits, e.g. Cosmiques, Torina, Boccallate and others serving as essentially aid stations halfway up?
SeanO, you should write all your rules down, but for the above IMHO, anything that's commercially available to others is fair game. Forgoing using huts even to just sleep in sounds unrealistic. You can use the rules I wrote for my stuff as a guideline, although there may be some specifics to the Alps/Europe that would things different. It's a more civilized place, I hear :)
I'll definitely write down precise rules if it looks like this thing will actually happen. I have pretty much your rules in mind, i.e. if it's available to anyone, it's fair game. The fact that there are huts serving three-course meals all over the mountains takes some getting used to coming from the States. I did the Alps "American-style" last time, i.e. sleeping in my car at trailheads and making absolutely no use of the huts, for which I got some funny looks.
User avatar
justiner
Posts: 3490
Joined: 8/28/2010
14ers: 58 4
13ers: 138
Trip Reports (28)
Contact:

Re: SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Post by justiner » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:36 pm

Really looking forward to following along. Loved reading your blog over the years. Hopefully current events will simmer down. Good luck!
seano
Posts: 510
Joined: 6/9/2010
14ers: 56
13ers: 131
Trip Reports (3)
Contact:

Re: SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Post by seano » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:10 pm

justiner wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:36 pm
Really looking forward to following along. Loved reading your blog over the years. Hopefully current events will simmer down. Good luck!
Thanks! I'm looking forward to your self-powered 14er book. The FKT is probably out of reach at my age, but it would be fun to do them at my own pace now that I find myself riding more.
User avatar
spiderman
Posts: 803
Joined: 9/26/2011
14ers: 58 3
13ers: 26
Trip Reports (1)

Re: SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Post by spiderman » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:18 pm

I like your idea to climb just the "Principal" summits. HYOH.
User avatar
jmanner
Posts: 1390
Joined: 5/26/2009
14ers: 58 26 10
13ers: 44 10 3
Trip Reports (15)

Re: SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Post by jmanner » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:01 am

Beat the Swiss Machine? Seems dubious
A man has got to know his limitations.-Dr. Jonathan Hemlock or Harry Callahan or something F' it: http://youtu.be/lpzqQst-Sg8

'Life is too short to ski groomers'

"That man's only desire was to stand, once only, on the summit of that glorious wedge of rock...I think anyone who loves the mountains as much as that can claim to be a mountaineer, too."-Hermann Buhl, Nanga Parbat Pilgrimage
seano
Posts: 510
Joined: 6/9/2010
14ers: 56
13ers: 131
Trip Reports (3)
Contact:

Re: SeanO is going for the Alps 4000m FKT

Post by seano » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:02 pm

jmanner wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:01 am
Beat the Swiss Machine? Seems dubious
Based on his book, Ueli was doing a lot of playing around during his record, e.g. climbing at least one peak with his wife, doing some others with a friend. He made it sound like "type I fun."
Post Reply