ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

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RETEP 1
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Re: ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

Post by RETEP 1 »

Ptglhs wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:23 am
KingHenryJames3rd wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:58 am Just curious does anyone know why they don't allow weekday access?
Not enough people want to do it. Their employees have other things to do during the week. They only allow access those three days during non hunting season to make more money.

You could probably Google operation dark snake if you're really looking for an alternate method of accessing these Peaks.
Courtesy: Rose Angry July 2,2020
Last week I had a long conversation with Carlos about people poaching peaks on ranch property. On 6/25 (the day before I arrived to hike the southern peaks), he'd caught an individual on the northern peaks. This person was spotted by a camera. They then used a drone to pinpoint his exact location and rode an atv to intercept him coming off the ridge. The police came out and citations were issued for two different courts based on crossing of boundaries. It would've been cheaper to just pay the ranch climbing fee. Carlos was also aware that someone on this site named Matt Lemke had trespassed earlier that week via ODS.

He went on to tell me several stories of how they've caught individuals. Some were even found camping. He told me about the elimination of weekday climbs due to people breaking ranch rules. With the continued poaching of peaks, they've also considered shutting down climbing altogether because of the constant waste of their time chasing people down. There was also talk of increasing fees.

I understand that some people don't want to pay to hike, and that's cool. Don't pay, but don't trespass. I have intentions of going back for the northern peaks and would like to see continued access for those of us that will legally arrange to do so.
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Boggy B
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Re: ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

Post by Boggy B »

Trespassing on the west side is pretty dumb. You'll get spanked.

If Bar NI catches you on the east side, you'll likely pay your fee, and it will have zero impact on legal, fee-based access from the west. If you leave a vehicle somewhere on the east side, it may or may not exist on your return. If you get caught by one of the thousands of other people who have an easement, you may be used for target practice. Or you might be mistaken for one of them. Only one way to find out!

Increasing fees or closing access altogether by CV will only encourage people to trespass. An automated, cheap permit system with a designated trailhead and occasional patrols might all but eliminate the hassle and expense. Understandably, they don't want people stressing the herd or they won't be able to charge $30k a head for guaranteed take, but the vast majority of would-be trespassers simply want to get on the ridge and bag peaks. Even their current level of spygames can't be carving an unsustainable chunk out of their hunting profits, though. Whenever they reach that point, I guess it will make financial sense for them to wash their hands of it. It's certainly never going to become less of a pain in the ass to own a peak(s) over 12,000' in Colorado.
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supranihilest
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Re: ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

Post by supranihilest »

Boggy B wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:51 amIncreasing fees or closing access altogether by CV will only encourage people to trespass. [...] Even their current level of spygames can't be carving an unsustainable chunk out of their hunting profits, though. Whenever they reach that point, I guess it will make financial sense for them to wash their hands of it. It's certainly never going to become less of a pain in the ass to own a peak(s) over 12,000' in Colorado.
This is what I have always thought too. Trespassers getting the peak(s) shutdown certainly hurt those who want to access them the legal way, but shutting them down also hurts the land owners and increases the number of trespassers. It's not like people are going to stop wanting these peaks. They just won't go the legal route because there won't be one anymore. See Bartlett Mountain and Boulder watershed peaks. Mind you, I don't advocate for trespassing on Cielo Vista because there is legal access even if I don't like it. I suppose there's a point where legal access is too costly or has too many hoops but I'm not there yet, personally. But closing the peaks off because of trespassers is just the land owners shooting themselves in the foot.
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KingHenryJames3rd
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Re: ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

Post by KingHenryJames3rd »

Ptglhs wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:23 am
KingHenryJames3rd wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:58 am Just curious does anyone know why they don't allow weekday access?
Not enough people want to do it. Their employees have other things to do during the week. They only allow access those three days during non hunting season to make more money.

You could probably Google operation dark snake if you're really looking for an alternate method of accessing these Peaks.
I disagree I think if they opened up weekday reservations maybe just for the month of June and July plenty of people would be interested. I do understand the man power issue though to have someone to open the gate check the log everyday and then dealing with the issue of people who didn't return in time. Do they allow access to make money? Because $150 a head looks like chump change to their hunting profits. I would think the only reason they allow the 3 days for limited times throughout the year is just to keep us peak baggers happy and limit trespassing.
I do not intend to trespass on this property. I respect their land and their rules. I attempted in February but failed so just makes sense for me to go back and get it next winter since I was lazy and didn't make my reservation in time.
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Re: ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

Post by Dayute »

Ptglhs wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:56 am Rights are social constructions. They are both subjective and objective. You think the "owner" of that land has a moral and legal right to close it off. I agree it's legal, disagree it's moral, and I don't think what he and his henchmen are doing should be legal. I think everyone has a right to hike there. End of story, as you say. See? Me saying that doesn't make my argument any more valid than yours. Ditto making two words appear in bold type.

The current owner didn't pay any money for that land. It was an inheritance.
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Re: ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

Post by nunns »

Private property ownership is a foundation of our society, and one of the main reasons why our standard of living is much higher here than in many other, more enlightened countries. I know some people will say: well, so-and-so owns 10's of thousands of acres of land, why can't they share? Well they can, and actually they do, by allowing people to climb the mountains for what I consider a reasonable fee. If you don't consider it reasonable, or you don't have the money, don't climb those peaks. I know Cotton has that philosophy, and I respect him for that.

You also have to consider the aspect of legal liability. Property owners are considered responsible for injuries that occur on their land unless they make a reasonable attempt to mitigate dangers. The ranch has people who are hired to manage the property and make sure that people who go there to climb are able to do so reasonably safely. In return for your fee, you can be reasonably certain that if something bad happens to you high on Culebra, Red, etc., search and rescue will be alerted the same day. Do you think that would happen on Wetterhorn?

I certainly have sympathy for those who can't get a spot for this year. Keep in mind that the mountains will still be there next year. Food tastes better when you are hungry and have to wait for it.

I also agree with those who say that completely eliminating access would encourage poaching of the mountains. I think that is why they allow climbing; it's easier to control the climbers that way. Based on the market value of that property, and assuming it is owned free and clear, the amount of revenue generated from climbers is minimal, especially considering the amount of time that Carlos and others spend dealing with climbers, having the meetings every morning, etc.

Sean Nunn
"Thy righteousness is like the great mountains." --Psalms 36:6
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Re: ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

Post by 12ersRule »

I think the idea of owning a mountain is complete and utter bollocks. You can't farm and ranch on mountain tops. Luring animals to your land by making food plentiful for them in the summer and then snuffing their lives out in the fall is immoral. Most of these big ranches out here are supplementing their land with easements and public lands and shutting the public out of what is rightfully theirs.

And don't even get me started on mining.

We own a bunch of land in Minnesota too. I wouldn't give 2 shits if someone fished off our dock if i wasn't around. It pissed me off when i found a deer stand on it though. LnT doesnt seem to be a thing with rednecks.
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Bombay2Boulder
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Re: ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

Post by Bombay2Boulder »

Culebra thread and property rights circle jerking, an iconic duo on this forum. :mrgreen:
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hellmanm
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Re: ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

Post by hellmanm »

nunns wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:24 am Private property ownership is a foundation of our society, and one of the main reasons why our standard of living is much higher here than in many other, more enlightened countries. I know some people will say: well, so-and-so owns 10's of thousands of acres of land, why can't they share? Well they can, and actually they do, by allowing people to climb the mountains for what I consider a reasonable fee. If you don't consider it reasonable, or you don't have the money, don't climb those peaks. I know Cotton has that philosophy, and I respect him for that.

You also have to consider the aspect of legal liability. Property owners are considered responsible for injuries that occur on their land unless they make a reasonable attempt to mitigate dangers. The ranch has people who are hired to manage the property and make sure that people who go there to climb are able to do so reasonably safely. In return for your fee, you can be reasonably certain that if something bad happens to you high on Culebra, Red, etc., search and rescue will be alerted the same day. Do you think that would happen on Wetterhorn?

I certainly have sympathy for those who can't get a spot for this year. Keep in mind that the mountains will still be there next year. Food tastes better when you are hungry and have to wait for it.

I also agree with those who say that completely eliminating access would encourage poaching of the mountains. I think that is why they allow climbing; it's easier to control the climbers that way. Based on the market value of that property, and assuming it is owned free and clear, the amount of revenue generated from climbers is minimal, especially considering the amount of time that Carlos and others spend dealing with climbers, having the meetings every morning, etc.

Sean Nunn
I love this explanation. The only thing I'd add is that every 14er has its challenges and intricacies. Some have gnarly 4WD roads that anyone without $10-20k to drop on a modified car will have to walk through in the heat (Little Bear). Some require taking a train just to get to the start of a backpack (Chi Basin), or watching every step for 1000' so as not to kick rocks down and kill people below (bells, LB) . Some require balancing on ridges where a slip can kill you (Capitol, Sunlight, Wilson Standard). Others are so easy that you can drive up if you're so inclined (Pikes/Evans), but even easy ones often have swarms of unprepared hikers to deal with (Bierstadt, Sherman...etc). The point is, I see dealing with CVR as just another aspect of the experience. Yeah, it's a challenge, but nearly every mountain has something.
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Boggy B
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Re: ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

Post by Boggy B »

nunns wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:24 am You also have to consider the aspect of legal liability. Property owners are considered responsible for injuries that occur on their land unless they make a reasonable attempt to mitigate dangers. The ranch has people who are hired to manage the property and make sure that people who go there to climb are able to do so reasonably safely. In return for your fee, you can be reasonably certain that if something bad happens to you high on Culebra, Red, etc., search and rescue will be alerted the same day.
The Colorado Recreational Use statute releases landowners from liability for injuries to recreational users incurred on their property when a fee was not charged. Most private landowners are unaware of this protection, which is why I carry a copy of it in my truck to show landowners when inquiring about access or display on the windshield when unable to contact them and the access situation is unknown.

I don't think CV are diverting resources to reasonable attempts to mitigate dangers, but in light of the CRS protections (of which I'm sure their lawyers are fully aware), liability is a weak justification for charging a fee.
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Re: ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

Post by speth »

You people are disgusting - please, won’t someone think of the billionaires??!!???
I'll be damned if I feel like I will ever know anything, but if we don't keep moving on that last hill, we'll never know what's on the other side.
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All I want is to just have fun, live my life like a son of a gun
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[-X What are you insinuating? Do you think I'm Ranger? =; Because if you do than you are dead wrong.
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Sarcasm or not, it's not even funny to post something like this. Not at this time. Reported.
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Re: ISO Cielo Vista/culebra extra space-ANY DATE

Post by Dayute »

Boggy B wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:51 pm
nunns wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:24 am You also have to consider the aspect of legal liability. Property owners are considered responsible for injuries that occur on their land unless they make a reasonable attempt to mitigate dangers. The ranch has people who are hired to manage the property and make sure that people who go there to climb are able to do so reasonably safely. In return for your fee, you can be reasonably certain that if something bad happens to you high on Culebra, Red, etc., search and rescue will be alerted the same day.
The Colorado Recreational Use statute releases landowners from liability for injuries to recreational users incurred on their property when a fee was not charged. Most private landowners are unaware of this protection, which is why I carry a copy of it in my truck to show landowners when inquiring about access or display on the windshield when unable to contact them and the access situation is unknown.

I don't think CV are diverting resources to reasonable attempts to mitigate dangers, but in light of the CRS protections (of which I'm sure their lawyers are fully aware), liability is a weak justification for charging a fee.
Not entirely true, at least not anymore.
https://www.westword.com/news/horrific- ... r-11232411
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