Getting Better at Routefinding

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daway8
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by daway8 »

mtree wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:51 am Taking multiple pictures, etc. Useless. How does THAT teach you route finding? It just helps you navigate without having to think with you're mind. Like reading a map with pics.
It's not the actual taking of the pictures that helps but the studying of the pictures that you've been taking as you go.

This studying very much requires you to think with your mind. It sounds real easy but to actually piece together a route to follow and match up features on a ridge from above, below, in front and behind, up close and far off is harder than it sounds.

I often take pictures as I approach an unfamiliar ridge and try to eyeball a line that looks promising. But as you get further along sometimes the path you thought you spotted from afar is hard to pick out when you're right in the middle of it.

That's when I bring up the pictures I took a few minutes ago, and after studying them for a while will eventually pick out a pattern of cracks on a rock face or spot a pattern of lichen or picture in my mind how a feature that looked triangular from a distance in the front now takes on a different shape when I'm standing next to it.

Sometimes (like with the Garfield-Red ridge I just did) doing some after the fact studying the photos I took during the hike helps me piece together how I might have been able to do that ridge better, which in turn helps me train my eyes/mind for what sort of things to look for when I'm in the field (and sometimes I do go back and revisit routes).

In earlier years I did mindless following of GPX tracks but gradually realized the potential problems of being too reliant on GPS so I'm weaning myself off of GPS (though I will always keep GPX tracks loaded as a fall back option).
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mtree
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by mtree »

Aphelion wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:41 am
I gotta strongly disagree most with this. Routefinding is a skill, and like all other skills, it can be improved given effort over time and an at least half-decent plan. Sure, some people will be born with more innate talent than others, but that's no excuse to just give up if you aren't handed greatness on a silver platter.
We'll agree to disagree. I already mentioned the OP can get BETTER. But if you suck you suck. Live with it.
And sorry, on a separate note, pics are imprints to study. Not really route finding. Ever try finding "I Spy with my Little Eye" without the pic in front of you? See how good you really are.
- I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was blaming you.
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daway8
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by daway8 »

mtree wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:00 am And sorry, on a separate note, pics are imprints to study. Not really route finding. Ever try finding "I Spy with my Little Eye" without the pic in front of you? See how good you really are.
So studying what's around you in order to find the best route forward isn't route finding???
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by Aphelion »

mtree wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:00 am
We'll agree to disagree. I already mentioned the OP can get BETTER. But if you suck you suck. Live with it.
So what's the threshold of "you suck?" Unable to pick the class 4 route from the surrounding 5.0? Unable to navigate without GPS tracks to check? Unable to tell east from west? At what level is it impossible to stop sucking? Maybe you mean this as "accept that you suck now and need to learn," in which case I've misinterpreted you, but otherwise I fail to see why navigation is something that someone might have accept forever being a terrible at just because it wasn't easy at the start.
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by mtree »

daway8 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:25 am
mtree wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:00 am And sorry, on a separate note, pics are imprints to study. Not really route finding. Ever try finding "I Spy with my Little Eye" without the pic in front of you? See how good you really are.
So studying what's around you in order to find the best route forward isn't route finding???
Let's answer the question the OP asked instead of stroking your ego.
I believe he/she is trying to learn the nuances of route finding while on trail. Not referring to maps, GPSs, pics, and gear, but just instinct, experience, and a little gamblers luck to boot. I say go out there and start practicing. See how it works. All the drivel on this site is pointless. Kinda like learning to hike. Read 14ers all you want, but you won't learn until to actually start hiking.
- I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was blaming you.
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mtree
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by mtree »

Aphelion wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:40 am
mtree wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:00 am
We'll agree to disagree. I already mentioned the OP can get BETTER. But if you suck you suck. Live with it.
So what's the threshold of "you suck?" Unable to pick the class 4 route from the surrounding 5.0? Unable to navigate without GPS tracks to check? Unable to tell east from west? At what level is it impossible to stop sucking? Maybe you mean this as "accept that you suck now and need to learn," in which case I've misinterpreted you, but otherwise I fail to see why navigation is something that someone might have accept forever being a terrible at just because it wasn't easy at the start.
Again. It isn't about you and it isn't about me. Its about the OP and his/her question. Reading this drivel isn't going to make anyone a better route finder. No matter how amusing it gets.
- I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was blaming you.
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by bdloftin77 »

mtree wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:50 am
daway8 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:25 am
mtree wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:00 am And sorry, on a separate note, pics are imprints to study. Not really route finding. Ever try finding "I Spy with my Little Eye" without the pic in front of you? See how good you really are.
So studying what's around you in order to find the best route forward isn't route finding???
Let's answer the question the OP asked instead of stroking your ego.
I believe he/she is trying to learn the nuances of route finding while on trail. Not referring to maps, GPSs, pics, and gear, but just instinct, experience, and a little gamblers luck to boot. I say go out there and start practicing. See how it works. All the drivel on this site is pointless. Kinda like learning to hike. Read 14ers all you want, but you won't learn until to actually start hiking.
123tqb wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:20 pm Getting into Class 4-5 alpine scrambling and climbing fairly recently, I am finding that my routefinding skills are seriously lacking. Looking back I can tell how some of my mistakes were made (not looking at the map carefully enough, not reading the full route description, etc.), but some of my mistakes I really just can't put a finger on. How did you guys become proficient at routefinding, or alternatively how did you practice? I want to be as safe a climber as possible and looking ahead, at my current pace, I find routefinding to be my fatal flaw.
IMO, the OP seems to be referring to both "find the best/easiest route as you go" as well as "trying to stick to a designated route based on beta (=map, route description, pics, etc)." Both might involve some innate talent, but I also do think they can be improved upon with practice. Many of the ideas above are good (ask climbing partner(s) what their decision process is, go solo and work on it yourself, don't climb up what you can't climb back down, etc).

Taking mental and physical pictures is a good idea. Using a map and/or GPS is also helpful. Often, I explore my route via google earth to get a big picture of where I'm going. This helps a lot with getting your basic bearings. If you're bushwhacking through the forest, having a GPS with tracks is also a good idea. But it's good to try to remember your route/landmarks in case the GPS fails.

One thing I'm working on is patience. Oftentimes, I get impatient and try to take the most direct way to the top. I've been learning that it's okay to sit back and take some time to think/explore - is this really the easiest way up? Is this just a false summit that I could easily bypass? Is there a class 2/3 route around the corner that I could take instead of this class 4+ stretch in front of me?

Kiefer has some good thoughts. You could bring a GPS, but (safely), try exploring with it turned off, and see if you can navigate on your own based on knowledge of the route, or a map you have with you (something I should try sometime.. I wonder if I often rely on my GPS too much). That probably helps a ton with route finding practice, instead of blindly following a GPX track.
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by daway8 »

mtree wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:50 am Let's answer the question the OP asked...
Agreed 100% That's exactly what most of us are doing.
mtree wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:50 am ...instead of stroking your ego.
Your ego is the only one being stroked - dismissing everything this site has to offer as pointless drivel. Just go away if you think that's true. The OP asked a question with the desire of getting answers. You may not approve of all answers but the OP doesn't need your blessing on the advice of others. Your arrogance in belittling sound advice from multiple sources is disgusting.
mtree wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:50 am I believe he/she is trying to learn the nuances of route finding while on trail.
Exactly - that's what all of us are trying to offer our tips on. I said earlier that I'm not proficient yet but I'm learning day by day. That's not ego speaking, that's a limited human being advertising his own limits while passing along what limited things he has so far found to help him progress.
mtree wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:50 am I say go out there and start practicing. See how it works.
At least you do have some rational sense left in you - we've pretty much all agreed on this point. The OP obviously already tried the go out there and see approach and wasn't satisfied with the results and thus asked for tips. Tips were given.

Final tip: don't waste time replying to mtree as I have just done. I should have known better...
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by constipated_pete »

I can be petty and confrontational from time to time but I'll always be impressed by how petty and confrontational the 14ers.com crowd is 24/7
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mtree
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by mtree »

Sorry if I was confrontational to anyone. Its only for amusement sake (maybe mine!). If you can't handle it grow a pair.

I think the mast majority of posts and responses on this site are 1) Out of boredom 2) To get a response 3) To prop yourself up 4) Silly. That's not to say it doesn't make for some mindless candy munch at times. That's ok. And the banter can be incredibly amusing! I just think folks take themselves and hiking waaaaay too seriously. Some of the responses sound like you're writing a PhD proposal. Some of the worst are based on flawed, pseudo, or made-up science. Yikes.

Its hiking. It takes good lungs, strong legs, and a will to succeed. Not much more. Just get out there and start doing it. Its the easiest way to learn. You don't need a pile of fancy REI equipment or even fancy shoes. Be a little smart, know your limits, and you'll be fine.

I'll never forget the dumbest question of all... "What position do you put your feet when you climb scree?" Seriously??? And the ultimate in elitist posts just recently while looking for partners:

- Have proper gear (meaning: no runners with a fanny pack, no newbies with cotton clothes, etc.)

Wow. Guess that eliminates me.
- I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was blaming you.
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by ltlFish99 »

My response is biased somewhat. I think that being able to read a map really well is quite important.
I love maps and always have. I started hiking with the CMC, and one of the first thing I did was to take the basic mountaineering course. map and compass was part of this.
It was very beneficial, and more difficult than I thought it would be to locate some flagging tape tied around the bottoms of 8 trees spaced .5 to 1 mile apart.
Of course, as has been mentioned a lot of details will not show up on a lot if maps, but it was very helpful to be able to study the map and try to match it to the terain.
I just had a helpful experience 2 weeks ago, when I took a not so standard or popular route up a 14er.
There was a section where it was obvious that either out of confusion, or the desire to locate a better route thru, or around a bunch of willows resulted in numerous social trails.
Some led deeper into what they hoped to avoid, some led in the wrong direction. When I would go in what I thought might be the wrong direction, I would limit it to 5ish minutes, then backtrack.
I probably spent about 30 or 40 minutes here before deciding to abandon this effort, and seek out a more promising route. I found one soon, then from there the remaining rout to the saddle became obvious.
I avoided this area on the way back.
It was worth the time spent to learn something.
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by 123tqb »

To clarify, routefinding to me involves both the ability to choose a line by sight and feel, while being able to reference maps/descriptions/etc. for beta. So while it's incredibly relevant to be able to choose the Class 4 line through Class 5 cliffs by sight, proper research is still within the definition. Thanks for all the advice!
Sometimes you don't think it be like it is, but it do.
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