Avalanche Near SLC, UT

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d_baker
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Re: Avalanche Near SLC, UT

Post by d_baker » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:07 pm

greenonion wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:56 pm
Fireweed wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:52 pm
https://twitter.com/dipsetcarini/status ... 92896?s=20

Video of an avalanche from the Unitas yesterday.
Super lucky! (at least the ones alive that you can see) Thanks for sharing. Super scary.
1. I found it "interesting" that they were in the runout deposition zone and continued to video the avalanche coming at them.
2. I found it "interesting" the guy turned his video back on so quickly after excavating the snow away from buried person's face.
3. I found the comments "interesting" as well. Lol #-o
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cottonmountaineering
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Re: Avalanche Near SLC, UT

Post by cottonmountaineering » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:09 pm

ker0uac wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:04 pm
curt86iroc wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:23 pm
ker0uac wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:15 pm


And Im sure you would hate if gob forbid you were to have a fatal accident and some punk here began saying "I don't think Jorts really understood what he was getting into, I think he failed to consider blah blah"
there is a difference between sounding like a condescending jerk and accurately conveying the factors that led up to a fatal accident. sometimes, you need to convey information that the subject missed in order for others to understand and learn from the accident. If you read ANAM, this is how a fair number of accident reports are written. Just because you highlight someone's lack of experience, for example, it doesn't mean you're being a jerk. it's more about how you say it...
No I think feeling pity for them is condescending, not running a post-mortem on the accident.

However, I do take issue with ANAM analysis at times. The reason being that some reports make it seem like accidents can always be linked to a human-made error. In a way, it is a coping mechanism for mountaineers - we all want to believe that as long as we make the right decisions, accidents won't happen to us. In reality, there are so many concurrent variables at play interacting in such a non-linear chaotic system that it is just not possible to say, "well it all happened because subject A decided to do this and that". Not all reports are like that though. Another issue is that we don't do post-mortem on successful feats, reinforcing the illusion that mountaineering accidents are caused by bad decisions.
The american alpine club releases an annual report on mountaineering accidents which are interesting to read through, there are a few each year that are chalked up to bad luck.
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curt86iroc
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Re: Avalanche Near SLC, UT

Post by curt86iroc » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:16 pm

ker0uac wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:04 pm
However, I do take issue with ANAM analysis at times. The reason being that some reports make it seem like accidents can always be linked to a human-made error. In a way, it is a coping mechanism for mountaineers - we all want to believe that as long as we make the right decisions, accidents won't happen to us. In reality, there are so many concurrent variables at play interacting in such a non-linear chaotic system that it is just not possible to say, "well it all happened because subject A decided to do this and that". Not all reports are like that though.
i definitely hear you, and you're right. sometimes, it has nothing to do with human decisions at all. sometimes, it is just bad luck.

a few years ago a woman was running under the cliffs at north table mountain when a 2000 lb boulder fell off and landed on her leg. bad luck..
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Re: Avalanche Near SLC, UT

Post by Bale » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:36 pm

Luck is absolutely a factor, most on this forum have probably had several close calls, whether we know it or not. But this argument goes the other way too. How many times do we hear, “that was just bad luck that he died in a crevasse”, or “that was just a freak accident when she got struck by lightning”, or “man, I guess his number was up ‘cause that hardly ever slides”, when so many accidents are preventable/ avoidable.
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Re: Avalanche Near SLC, UT

Post by ker0uac » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:37 pm

Jorts wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:46 pm
ker0uac wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:15 pm
Jorts wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:07 pm
I've been backcountry skiing all season and understand the risks.
And Im sure you would hate if gob forbid you were to have a fatal accident and someone here began saying "I don't think Jorts really understood what he was getting into, I think he failed to consider blah blah"
I guess it depends, man. If me and several of my partners were all caught and those that survived said, "we never thought it would rip," I'd say I didn't understand the risks. If we were skiing one at a time, and I got caught and died, then I'd say we understood the risks. Regardless, I'd want others to learn from my death.

Sorry if I came off as condescending with my speculation. Not my intent. sometimes it's hard to convey sarcasm, sincerity, etc. on an internet forum.
You were fine. I just don't see the same cause-effect relationships you are bringing up. I am not sure what were the decisions made so I can't comment. But there are very few absolute truths when it comes to the backcountry.
Those who travel to mountain-tops are half in love with themselves and half in love with oblivion
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curt86iroc
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Re: Avalanche Near SLC, UT

Post by curt86iroc » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:14 pm

ker0uac wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:37 pm
But there are very few absolute truths when it comes to the backcountry.
Last edited by curt86iroc on Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jorts
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Re: Avalanche Near SLC, UT

Post by Jorts » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:51 pm

ker0uac wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:37 pm
I just don't see the same cause-effect relationships you are bringing up.
Guess I was just drawing the parallel that 1) Most avalanche incidents involve experienced people (there's a widely held misconception that mostly novices get into trouble). 2) Experience does not necessarily mean complete risk awareness.

CAIC released the final report from the incident in Silverton. The experienced group made several really smart decisions showing their risk awareness on the way to the hut. Traveling one at a time beneath slide terrain. Deciding against skiing the nose even though they had in times past. But one thing that really stuck out was that the 4th skier at the top of the gully instructed another skier further down to move away from the skiers right side of the gully beneath the slope that slid.

There are always different experience levels and risk tolerances amongst individuals in a group. I guess the big takeaway from these recent MCIs is the importance of communication and awareness of those varying experience levels and risk tolerances. If I'm the most experienced in a group, I want to make sure I communicate what I consider risky terrain even if I'm comfortable with it. If I'm less experienced, I think I need to make it clear I want to know when something involves some risk that I might not necessarily be aware of.

Reconciling experience levels with risk tolerances in a group is a real challenge.

I don't intend any disrespect to victims and their friends and family in analyzing these incidents. My sincere condolences go out to everyone effected by them.
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climbingcue
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Re: Avalanche Near SLC, UT

Post by climbingcue » Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:24 am

Jorts wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:51 pm

Reconciling experience levels with risk tolerances in a group is a real challenge.
This is the exact reason I am very careful of who I am willing to go into the back country with, this also carries over to winter 14ers.
Consecutive months with at least one 14er, 39 months and counting...
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Re: Avalanche Near SLC, UT

Post by daway8 » Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:08 am

SkaredShtles wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:56 pm
Jorts wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:03 pm
<snip>
If you look at the slope where this accident occurred, it appears innocuous. It was only 31 degrees! It has a few open areas but it's fairly well timbered, particularly down ridge. The crown propagated through the trees. An advanced backcountry user who has skied this and similar terrain hundreds of times without incident would think nothing of the risk here. Someone expert - like an avalanche forecaster - would be more likely to recognize this terrain's capacity to produce a large dangerous slide given snowpack conditions. Truly grasping what's possible given very specific conditions... that takes a lot more experience than I have.

So I think those forecaster level experts can make real risk assessments. I don't think intermediate-advanced users are really capable of understanding the risk.
This readily available information *should* have been known to an advanced/experienced BC user. Note - the highlighted items are *all* avalanch reports from this exact glade. Also worth noting - these avy incidents are from 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2021 - so this slope, IMO, could be considered a "regular" problem.


avalanche-utah_Feb21.jpg
Curious what site/program you're using to get this visual presentation of past avy reports from that far back?

(I only just realized that CAIC has the option to select a map view under their accidents tab and plot historical data - I find that kind of visual presentation useful. Obviously not for the purpose of deeming any area safe, but for helping to highlight those areas especially prone to frequent problems plus highlighting a few surprise areas).
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Re: Avalanche Near SLC, UT

Post by SkaredShtles » Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:35 am

daway8 wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:08 am

Curious what site/program you're using to get this visual presentation of past avy reports from that far back?

(I only just realized that CAIC has the option to select a map view under their accidents tab and plot historical data - I find that kind of visual presentation useful. Obviously not for the purpose of deeming any area safe, but for helping to highlight those areas especially prone to frequent problems plus highlighting a few surprise areas).
Surprisingly, it's the *Utah* avalanche center website. :mrgreen:

https://utahavalanchecenter.org/avalanches/map
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daway8
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Re: Avalanche Near SLC, UT

Post by daway8 » Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:46 am

SkaredShtles wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:35 am
daway8 wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:08 am

Curious what site/program you're using to get this visual presentation of past avy reports from that far back?

(I only just realized that CAIC has the option to select a map view under their accidents tab and plot historical data - I find that kind of visual presentation useful. Obviously not for the purpose of deeming any area safe, but for helping to highlight those areas especially prone to frequent problems plus highlighting a few surprise areas).
Surprisingly, it's the *Utah* avalanche center website. :mrgreen:

https://utahavalanchecenter.org/avalanches/map
Ahh, I guess I've gotten so used to seeing CAIC post out of state accidents lately that I sort of forgot that the first C in CAIC sort of limits the area of main interest...

Thanks!
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Re: Avalanche Near SLC, UT

Post by SkaredShtles » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:00 pm

daway8 wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:46 am
SkaredShtles wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:35 am
daway8 wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:08 am

Curious what site/program you're using to get this visual presentation of past avy reports from that far back?

(I only just realized that CAIC has the option to select a map view under their accidents tab and plot historical data - I find that kind of visual presentation useful. Obviously not for the purpose of deeming any area safe, but for helping to highlight those areas especially prone to frequent problems plus highlighting a few surprise areas).
Surprisingly, it's the *Utah* avalanche center website. :mrgreen:

https://utahavalanchecenter.org/avalanches/map
Ahh, I guess I've gotten so used to seeing CAIC post out of state accidents lately that I sort of forgot that the first C in CAIC sort of limits the area of main interest...

Thanks!
There's a Montana one too! :mrgreen:

https://www.mtavalanche.com/

And, of course, if you don't know which one to go to: https://avalanche.org/
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