Crampons and non-mountaineering boots

[jscully205]

I'd say it's more economical and cost effective to go with a different boot if you're looking an "all-rounder" quiver killer per se. That boot and crampon combo you're inquiring about would be fine for the occasional low angle snowfield, but you will most likely want something warmer in the winter and for more efficient/comfortable for extended periods of glacial travel.

I wouldn't underestimate how cold it could be on winter 13er/14er in the winter. Your feet will most likely be in the snow below tree-line and then exposed to wind when you're on top on the snow above tree-line.

Everyone can go further and faster the more efficient they are. What is that worth to you? The flex in those boots even at moderate inclines is going to put some more strain on calves and foot auxiliary muscles than a stiffer boot, thus tiring you out quicker.

For what you are looking to do there are a plethora of lightweight 3 season mountaineering boots out there that I think you will be much happier with in the long run. Sportiva, Scarpa, Salewa etc. Fit is the most important thing to consider. You're better off paying full retail for a pair of boots that fit properly than saving a bucks on a pair that don't and then rebuying. All accept strap-on crampons like the ones you intend on buying and most if not all accept semi-auto crampons which you may want in the future for a better fit.

With that said, you can get away with doing a lot of mountain routes with just micro-spikes and trail runners here in Colorado. Anything you don't have to front point on is a good example. A lot of it comes down to the user and skill level. "It's not the arrow, but the archer" applies here too. I know a guy who climbed Gannett Peak with no crampons.

Also, one thing to keep in mind about Goretex footwear is although it keeps your feet drier longer, if it gets saturated it'll take longer to dry than non Goretex.

[ellenmseb]

Thanks everyone. I'm thinking about getting these Salewa Crows: https://www.rei.com/used/p/salewa-crow- ... ens/113101

They are pretty lightweight, OK for hiking as well as snow, somewhat warm, and can take hybrid crampons in case I need those in the future. They might be half a size too big, which is good for winter but not ideal in summer. Trango Tech is another option, but not available used, and not durable nor warm according to reviews. Are these appropriate for the 3 uses mentioned? & I assume they are not sufficient for Rainier or Mont Blanc if I got deeper into mountaineering in the far future.

I'd say it's more economical and cost effective to go with a different boot

I already have the Salomons and will continue using them for summer. But, forcing the salomons onto snow actually wears them out faster and require replacement sooner. I already wore through 2 pairs..

[BKS]

I think that salewa boot is the best category of boot for your interests. I use a similar La sportiva boot for spring couloir climbs up to 50 degrees and winter hiking. It’s not fully rigid And fairly lightweight so you can hike in it fine and then stiff enough put either a strap on crampon or semi-auto/hybrid crampon for moderate snow climbing. I prefer a trail hiker in the summer

Limitations: 1. it’s not fully insulated for full on winter conditions and my feet have gotten fairly cold. I don’t find two socks help much on warmth. One day I mistakenly ended up with two on one foot and one on the other- no difference in warmth.
2. It isn’t the boot for steep front pointing in snow that isn’t punchy.

If you are buying crampons for such a boot I’d go ahead and buy a semi auto over the strap on.

[nyker]

I've gotten so much conflicting advice on this question. Yes or no, can I climb:

1. easy 13ers/14ers in Winter, e.g. Pikes crags trail
2. Early-season snowfields/couloirs e.g. Capitol in early July, Whitney in June (it seems unlikely that people are hiking 15 miles in mountaineering boots for a few hundred yards in crampons?)
3. Easy glacier travel e.g. Shasta, Mt. Hood

With these boots: https://www.rei.com/product/122163/salo ... ots-womens
Which are half a size too big so that I can wear 2 pairs of socks, and toe warmers; they claim to be waterproof but will soak through eventually.

And these crampons: https://www.rei.com/product/798354/blac ... abs-plates

Or do I need buy mountaineering boots?

I'm not sure whether I would use those boots enough to justify the cost. at least, I'll do Pikes in winter and Shasta in June. Unclear if I'll end up doing any early-season climbing or just wait until they're melted out, and whether I'll move up from Shasta to other cascade volcanoes. I do come to Colorado every Christmas and Thanksgiving and would appreciate the ability to hike without frostbite (though I could alternatively focus on cross-country or backcountry skiing).

For winter, I'd think those will not be warm enough but depends on if you tend to run warm or run cold (i.e. get colder feet or not) and what sock/footbed combination you have. Thicker gaiters would also make a difference.

The BD contact strap crampons are fine for those peaks you mention - however I would not wear those shoes and would prefer more of a mountaineering boot with firmer soles, back welt and probably a bit warmer for winter climbs, Shasta or Mount Hood.
Despite its popularity and ease of access from a paved parking lot, I would also not characterize Mount Hood as "easy" as above the Devil's Kitchen there are no fall zones where you'll want rock solid footwear/footing system.

On other peaks with more gentle terrain, I've used softer, i.e. 3 season boots with those exact crampons and were fine, though were not as snug fitting as boots with a crampon welt in the back and hybrid crampons.
For Hood (PG), Shasta (Avy Gulch) and Rainier (DC and IG), I used Grivel G12s with Sportiva Red Trangos - admittedly on the lighter end of mountaineering boots but with double socks and gaitors I was "ok to warm" in them.

For Mount Whitney, depends on which route you take and when you go and what conditions will be like. I've been there in July and needed traction, then I've been there in mid November and did not. I would plan on needing them. Going 100% on the Main trail (WMT), your crampons will be used on iced over sections lower down, the switchbacks which will be ice or hard packed snow and then around the back end of Trail Crest and JMT junction. If you opt to take the Chute off the Main trail rather than the switchbacks I would want more secure crampon/boot combination there as its ~1,600+ft vert to 45* or higher in spots, same thing with the Mountaineers Route both of which have steeper couloirs to ascend vs. the WMT. FWIW, people DO hike 15 miles in mountaineering boots for "just a few hundred yards in crampons"...and for the WMT, it's more like 22+ miles.

I like your Salewa choice better then your first choice and I think they will "edge" better in steep snow when not wearing crampons (though be careful with used boots...)

Whichever you choose, before going out to the aforementioned mountains, make sure you spend some time on lower angle terrain getting comfortable walking in them and practicing not to trip and catch your opposite pant leg, and lastly practice self arrest...You'll want an axe on those routes so get practice using that as well.

Good luck!

[Aphelion]

Thanks everyone. I'm thinking about getting these Salewa Crows: https://www.rei.com/used/p/salewa-crow- ... ens/113101

... Are these appropriate for the 3 uses mentioned? & I assume they are not sufficient for Rainier or Mont Blanc if I got deeper into mountaineering in the far future.

I've had a couple pairs of the Crows, and I'm a big fan of them. I don't know that I would ice climb in them, but they're plenty stiff enough for any kind of snow travel (your crampon straps will be the bigger point of failure at that point). That being said, they are not insulated and only somewhat warmer than a standard backpacking boot. Though the Salomon boots you have are very light, so you'd probably notice a solid increase in warmth from what you have. Personally, I can stay warm in the Crows down to around 10F, but I also run a lot warmer than most people I hike with. Having climbed Rainier, I think they would be a bit on the light side for that.

You definitely can throw strap-on crampons onto a pair of non-full-shank boots and be ok on moderate snow slopes. It's not the best way or the way I recommend, but you can do it as long as the boots are warm enough. But I've had a pair of the men's version of your Salomon boots, and they are not at all the boots I would choose to do that with. Far too floppy.

[ellenmseb]

To be clear, I already have the Salomons. I'm not choosing between Salomon vs. Salewa, I'm choosing to add mountaineering boots to my collection if the Salomons are insufficient.

If 3-season mountaineering boots are only marginally warmer than my current boots, and if my current boots can handle crampons on Shasta, then I should probably refrain from buying mountaineering boots until I actually run into a situation where I absolutely need them. Possibly I never need to buy mountaineering boots, or if I do, I'll have a better idea of what I need when i have more experience.

[Jorts]

If 3-season mountaineering boots are only marginally warmer than my current boots.

I wore Crows up Chimborazo and slept in a snow pit in May on top of Quandary in them. I think everyone steering you away from them thinks you’ll be climbing in blustery white out conditions or something. They might not be sufficient for the Himalayas but they’re excellent for hybrid crampons and nice winter days.

[desertdog]

You’ve gotten some good advice, so I’ll just second it since I’m late to the party. For the CO 13ers / 14ers most routes are pretty straight forward and hiking boots plus spikes work as long as they keep you feet warm.

The Cascades / Sierras are definitely a step up in difficulty. You would want a mountaineering boot and crampon set up for those. I like the La Sportiva Trangos or Nepal Evos depending on how cold it is. I’ve used the Trangos in the summer on all the mountains you mentioned. Sizing is a pain. I go up a half a size but know people that go up a full. I would order two different sizes, try them on, then return the one that does not work. Hope this helps.

[gzrrnnr]

I am a believer in traveling as light as possible when it can be done safely. I have used trail runners and Kahtoola crampons and microspikes for almost all my late spring, summer, and early fall trips on easy to moderate snow. Did Shasta in early June in a day via the Avalanche Gulley with the running shoes and K crampons - just had to keep moving and had good weather, so there were no problems. In summer, I carry microspikes any time there is a chance of having easy snow to cross.

One person asked about using bread bags over the socks in winter, presumably to keep the socks dry. Unfortunately, it works opposite the desired effect - your feet sweat and the moisture cannot get out. If you are out for several hours, your feet are colder. My thoughts are from personal experience - I used the plastic bags years ago and almost lost six toes to frostbite. In retrospect, that was pretty dumb on my part.

[TomPierce]

I am a believer in traveling as light as possible when it can be done safely. I have used trail runners and Kahtoola crampons and microspikes for almost all my late spring, summer, and early fall trips on easy to moderate snow. Did Shasta in early June in a day via the Avalanche Gulley with the running shoes and K crampons - just had to keep moving and had good weather, so there were no problems. In summer, I carry microspikes any time there is a chance of having easy snow to cross.

One person asked about using bread bags over the socks in winter, presumably to keep the socks dry. Unfortunately, it works opposite the desired effect - your feet sweat and the moisture cannot get out. If you are out for several hours, your feet are colder. My thoughts are from personal experience - I used the plastic bags years ago and almost lost six toes to frostbite. In retrospect, that was pretty dumb on my part.

The plastic bag idea, e.g. bread bags, etc., is known as a vapor barrier liner (VBL). There's a pretty long history of VBL's being used in both mountaineering and the military (the "bunny boots" used by the military years ago in Arctic conditions is an example). But IMO climbers often don't fully understand the theory of a VBL. The idea is that you'd use a very thin liner sock next to the skin, put on the VBL, then put on a heavy winter sock, all inside an insulated boot. The theory is that your feet are going to perspire anyway, so why soak all your insulation during an all day winter outing? The VBL keeps your outer insulating layers dry, but having those sufficient insulation layers is critically important.

I experiemented with VBL's many years ago with "real" VBL liners, e.g. waterproof socks specifically designed for that use (Integral Designs and I think BD used to make them). I can attest the concept works, but came to a few conclusions: (1) It's not a magic wand. Again, those outer insulation layers are critically important; if you have crappy footwear that's not truly winter-worthy, it's not going to make your feet magically toasty warm; (2) IMO, VBL's really are useful in bitterly cold conditions, maybe a day when the high temp is about zero or less? My opinion is that they don't work well when your feet are utterly soaked with perspriation on warmer winter days, and (3) I now think VBL's are a bit of a historical relic. They came about back in the day when winter climbing boots had plastic or heavy waxed leather shells, i.e. not breathable shells. Modern winter boots are just so much better, lighter with breathable outers, synthetic insulation, etc. I've used both and personally no longer see a need for a VBL, at least in the typically balmy ( ) winter temps in Colorado.

Just my opinions.

-Tom

[Conor]

I would think the crows would be nice for easy summer travel in the cascades and good for winter travel in colorado (assuming they're warm enough for you). I think the 40 degree overboot would be a nice addition if you wanted a single boot and wanted to add some warmth. I had a climbing partner wear a boot similar to crows in europe on routes like mitteligi and cosmiques (both super easy glacier travel). I would imagine, even something like the kautz on rainier the crows would definitely be enough if you found them warm enough.

may not be the best at anything, other than trail hiking and scrambling, but it will get the job done.

[justiner]

The plastic bag idea, e.g. bread bags, etc., is known as a vapor barrier liner (VBL). There's a pretty long history of VBL's being used in both mountaineering and the military (the "bunny boots" used by the military years ago in Arctic conditions is an example). But IMO climbers often don't fully understand the theory of a VBL. The idea is that you'd use a very thin liner sock next to the skin, put on the VBL, then put on a heavy winter sock, all inside an insulated boot. The theory is that your feet are going to perspire anyway, so why soak all your insulation during an all day winter outing? The VBL keeps your outer insulating layers dry, but having those sufficient insulation layers is critically important.

I never understood bunny boots as a concept, as I agree with what you're writing - you want that VBL close to your skin, not away. But the VBL in a bunny boot would probably be the outter layer, right?

I've used the plastic bag trick many of times, but mostly when it's a, "better than nothing" type of scenario. Lots of cold bike rides! And now that I think of it, more to keep water OUT than to keep perspiration from sogging up my socks! Or if it's a spring day and the afternoon warmed up. If I have a pair of socks to change into, I'll do that, and wrap the plastic bag around those socks, then put my wet shoes back on.

VBL can be useful for layering though. Even putting a puffy over a light water resistant layer seems like a wiser choice than that puffy underneath.