My Toes Are Still Cold

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Carl_Healy
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My Toes Are Still Cold

Post by Carl_Healy »

I've decided to dive head in to this winter hiking thing. Though new to mountaineering, when I've been skiing in the past I've always had a problem with my toes getting too cold. Not anywhere else on my body; not my fingers or even the rest of my feet.
To solve this problem for hiking/climbing I decided to go all out and bought some La Sportiva Nepal Evo GTX boots. A bit overkill perhaps for non-technical routes, but I wanted something warm.

Though today attempting Huron with some others here on the forums my toes were again getting pretty cold. And about halfway up I pulled my feet out to check only to discover that ALL my toes were 100% numb.
Distressingly numb.
They've been numb on occasion before when skiing but not like today...
I turned around almost right away to give me an opportunity to warm them again back at the trailhead ASAP.

When warm again they all appeared ok, though my right big toe right now definitely feels like it was well on its way to at least frost nip.

I've somewhat come to the conclusion now that with my extra bulky Carhartt wool socks my boots were too tight and that lack of circulation was the main culprit. I'm planning on getting some thinner Smart Wool socks, or potentially looking at moving my boots up half a size.
I say this because if I'm going to be honest I already know that my problematic ski boots are a little too tight too, and the fact that today nowhere else on my body was cold.
I was even not any wearing gloves and only a T-shirt (+ base layer) for a good portion of the route and none of those parts of my body were getting cold.

Though all that being said, my purpose of this post is to ask: Am I overlooking anything? Is there anything else that could explain why my feet were so cold despite having what appears to be very capable and warm gear?
-----

TL, DR

I spent a bunch of money on gear meant to keep my feet warm. Why are my feet still cold?
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If you can't walk, you crawl
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Re: My Toes Are Still Cold

Post by aholle88 »

Sounds like you already figured it out. It’s most likely due to tight footwear. I find that double layering lighter smart wool socks works better than one thicker pair, helps wick moisture away better. So that could be an option to try, but try different ways of lacing and tightening the boots. Usually it’s too tight in the calf area or too tight in the forefoot near the ankle joint. You could try keeping the laces looser around that area and tighter up top or vice versa
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Re: My Toes Are Still Cold

Post by dwoodward13 »

Personally, I don't think the Nepals are that warm. My insulated Salomon boots are far warmer and 400 dollars less. Just because they are 'mountaineering boots' doesn't mean much in regards to warmth. I think its worth considering if you need the full shank (crampons), and if not, there are more insulated (and cheaper) non-mountaineering boots out there.
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Re: My Toes Are Still Cold

Post by dwoodward13 »

CaptCO wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:40 pm
dwoodward13 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:38 pm Personally, I don't think the Nepals are that warm. My insulated Salomon boots are far warmer and 400 dollars less. Just because they are 'mountaineering boots' doesn't mean much in regards to warmth. I think its worth considering if you need the full shank (crampons), and if not, there are more insulated (and cheaper) non-mountaineering boots out there.
I call bulls**t, which Salos do you own? I've had a couple of pairs and disagree totally
Salomon X Ultra Winter with 200g Thinsulate
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Re: My Toes Are Still Cold

Post by geg86 »

In addition to finding the right boot/sock combo, you can tape hand warmers to your inner ankle (around the posterior tib). I also have heated socks, but they only last about 8 hours. I have really bad raynauds (circulatory issue) and need to do this in addition the right boots/socks/gaiters. Also works for hands if you tape the warmers on your wrist.
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Re: My Toes Are Still Cold

Post by Conor »

The nepals are a warm boot. Other boots can be just as warm or warmer. Not sure I'd want to spend a lot of time in a full shank boot if i didnt have to. I had an issue with "dancers foot" with the heel and the full shank. My feet were going numb because of it. I got the issue squared away, but I would rather not spend time in my nepals if othet boots can be worn, even though i can now wear them out for even a night out on the town.

I just use a light weight ski sock. I've never found the purpose of bulky socks other thsb wesring them around the house.

An issue i had at work, with my arctic pro muck boots (rated for -60 to -30 F), is my feet would get clammy. Even wool socks would have my feet cold in a more "normal" environment (60 deg ish). So, make sure you are able to move moisture away.
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Re: My Toes Are Still Cold

Post by Wildernessjane »

CaptCO wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:46 pm
dwoodward13 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:42 pm
CaptCO wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:40 pm

I call bulls**t, which Salos do you own? I've had a couple of pairs and disagree totally
Salomon X Ultra Winter with 200g Thinsulate
I've had the X Ultras and they were good in Summer. Might have to try these out, still calling BS
My Salomon Toundras are WAY warmer than my Nepal Evos. These are going for around $150 if you shop around. In a pinch, I’ve also used chemical hand warmers taped to the front side of the shin at the top of the boot (not directly to the skin). I learned this trick from a physician friend who has training in mountain medicine. My personal system is a very thin sock liner and a medium weight sock with boots that are 1/2 size up from my regular size.
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Re: My Toes Are Still Cold

Post by Alpine Guy »

"I spent a bunch of money on gear meant to keep my feet warm. Why are my feet still cold?"

You aren't moving fast enough. I actually have no idea why you're feet are getting cold but there is a huge difference between those who can generate large amounts of heat moving in the mtns and those who can't. I use Vasque SnowburbanII boots w/ 400g thinsulate and they do very well while moving (and I'm slow) but they do not keep my feet warm just sitting around in cold weather. Also, as Conor mentioned there is something about getting vapor out of your boots and that's very hard to reconcile with keeping dry. Maybe carry a spare pair of sox or two.
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Re: My Toes Are Still Cold

Post by SnowAlien »

Nepals are not that warm and an overkill for 14ers. I had a teammate turn around on Orizaba because of frozen toes. Probably too fitted/tight.
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Re: My Toes Are Still Cold

Post by nyker »

Carl_Healy wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:07 pm I've decided to dive head in to this winter hiking thing. Though new to mountaineering, when I've been skiing in the past I've always had a problem with my toes getting too cold. Not anywhere else on my body; not my fingers or even the rest of my feet.
To solve this problem for hiking/climbing I decided to go all out and bought some La Sportiva Nepal Evo GTX boots. A bit overkill perhaps for non-technical routes, but I wanted something warm.

Though today attempting Huron with some others here on the forums my toes were again getting pretty cold. And about halfway up I pulled my feet out to check only to discover that ALL my toes were 100% numb.
Distressingly numb.
They've been numb on occasion before when skiing but not like today...
I turned around almost right away to give me an opportunity to warm them again back at the trailhead ASAP.

When warm again they all appeared ok, though my right big toe right now definitely feels like it was well on its way to at least frost nip.

I've somewhat come to the conclusion now that with my extra bulky Carhartt wool socks my boots were too tight and that lack of circulation was the main culprit. I'm planning on getting some thinner Smart Wool socks, or potentially looking at moving my boots up half a size.
I say this because if I'm going to be honest I already know that my problematic ski boots are a little too tight too, and the fact that today nowhere else on my body was cold.
I was even not any wearing gloves and only a T-shirt (+ base layer) for a good portion of the route and none of those parts of my body were getting cold.

Though all that being said, my purpose of this post is to ask: Am I overlooking anything? Is there anything else that could explain why my feet were so cold despite having what appears to be very capable and warm gear?
-----

TL, DR

I spent a bunch of money on gear meant to keep my feet warm. Why are my feet still cold?
Short answer is everyone is different, has different metabolisms, underlying conditions and different environmental tolerances, so without knowing more about you, I can only speculate.

Maybe upsizing your boot a half size and a sock combination that's not super tight will work and be the easy fix or trying another brand/model boot. Being on a mountain in winter conditions is extreme and any detail you don't focus on will reveal itself sooner.

Absent that working, I have some thoughts-

Is the degree to which your feet get cold/numb usually the same or is it sometimes better/worse than others? What about your hands, do they get cold also?

Do you have any underlying conditions like peripheral neuropathy, neuromas, diabetes, prediabetes, Raynaud's, etc? Any of those could result in numb/cold toes.

I have experienced many times what Alpine Guy mentions in that maybe you're not moving fast enough to generate enough body heat and your feet then will be colder, especially in snow and more so as Conor said, if your socks don't wick moisture away. Assuming fit is ok, that's often the case where two people are wearing the same boot and one has freezing toes, one doesn't. Ones ability to tolerate cold can also influence this greatly (this is where underlying conditions come into play - a sluggish thyroid can cause colder extremities among other things). If all these other suggestions are not giving you a good answer, best is to get a good thorough check up with your Dr. and perhaps there is an underlying reason you're prone to get colder feet.

Per SnowAlien's comment, I was also wearing Nepals on Orizaba and my feet one day were freezing on the morning I started out. This was odd, as I hadn't been cold in them before including two weeks earlier on snow climbs in cold weather (teens) in new Mexico and New York. However, I had some other issues going on that day on Orizaba; GI issues, I didn't sleep for two nights so was stressed and as such was moving like a slug, and I was just freezing even with another layer on. Two days later, better rested, a bit more acclimatized and a better tummy, I felt great in the same Nepals, same clothes, socks even slightly colder conditions and cut my time to the start of the glacier by 40% easy. Same thing happened to me on Grays once, where I was coming off an illness and never should have been climbing, but my feet were freezing (as was the rest of me) largely due to not moving quickly enough to generate heat. Once fully recovered, cold feet was not an issue, so you never know. Cold feet is often a symptom of something else (internal) or external (poor fit, tight, etc.)

Also, do you make it a habit to eat and hydrate sufficiently on these trips? Dehydration can result in being colder all things equal and without enough food beforehand, that thermogenesis you need to stay warm won't occur as readily and you'll feel that in your hands and/or feet. There is also a fine line here, i.e. to eat enough (to keep generating heat) but not too much that it negatively impacts your ability to climb at altitude.

The comments on socks above are good. Everyone is different here, but I always wear two pairs, a thin liner and thicker (not too thick) warmth/cushion sock on top, enough to still have a good 1/4"-1/2" space to breathe. You might want to experiment with thicker foot beds/insoles that might be warmer too (just make sure you try your boots on with those since they'll likely add a 1/4 or 1/2 size to the boot you need with them in it.
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Re: My Toes Are Still Cold

Post by shays_days »

Always had cold feet like you. My best guess is circulation. On my first winter 14er I was a dumbass and put my spare pair of socks on the summit since my feet were cold. It felt tight but I said it’s fine, I’ll be cozy. My feet got soooo much colder on the way down and bc it was so tight, both my big toenails actually started hurting, and turned black and fell off after the climb. Never again.

It took me a bit to get my socks dialed but now on cold cold days I wear smartwool mountaineering weight or these random wool socks I got off amazon, on anything else I’ll take a darn tough from an assortment of weights. I had a winter day that started at -8 and stayed under zero for a few hours until the sun came up and my feet were cold, but not dangerously so.

Once I got my sock weight dialed with my boot size I was golden.
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Re: My Toes Are Still Cold

Post by Carl_Healy »

Thanks all for the comments.

I do think it's interesting that there's some back and forth on whether the Nepals are really a warm boot or not.
And yes as I mentioned I know they are overkill for for something like a Class 2 route up Huron but part of the reason I bought them was also to have them for a while down the road when I'd improve my skill set enough to climb more technically in winter. Even if warmth isn't the focus of the boots I feel like my feet shouldn't have been as cold wearing them as they were...
Alpine Guy wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:49 pm You aren't moving fast enough.
Yes I think that was definitely a big factor as well. As mentioned I was with a group. Two of us actually forged ahead breaking trail at a really fast pace and I only really noticed that my toes were getting cold when we stopped at a switchback high above and waited for the rest to catch up. I should have mentioned that initially.
Even seemed like I started to feel again maybe a mile away from the trailhead on the way down and I was going down pretty fast.
nyker wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:21 pm Is the degree to which your feet get cold/numb usually the same or is it sometimes better/worse than others? What about your hands, do they get cold also?

Do you have any underlying conditions like peripheral neuropathy, neuromas, diabetes, prediabetes, Raynaud's, etc? Any of those could result in numb/cold toes.

...

Also, do you make it a habit to eat and hydrate sufficiently on these trips? Dehydration can result in being colder all things equal and without enough food beforehand, that thermogenesis you need to stay warm won't occur as readily and you'll feel that in your hands and/or feet. There is also a fine line here, i.e. to eat enough (to keep generating heat) but not too much that it negatively impacts your ability to climb at altitude.
No as mentioned my toes had been cold skiing before but when I took my toes out to check them yesterday they were probably as numb as they had ever been in my whole life, which really freaked me out. All my toes from the tip to the bottom, numb to the bone.
I've never had frostbite before so I don't know what that feels like when it's onset but I didn't want to risk finding out the hard way.
No where else on my body was cold. I even took my gloves off for a good portion of the route.

I also don't believe I have any underlying condition that affects circulation, nor does any in my immediate family. Edit: And I have no reason to believe that I wasn't eating or hydrating enough



It's also worth mentioning that my socks were completely dry, though I did have another pair of the same type that I could have used to swap out if necessary.
I'll definitely try some of the sock things mentioned including the layering up of two thinner socks. I'll also try wearing my laces looser moving forward.

Thanks all again for the comments.


Of course, another thing I could try is wearing my Baffin Fort Macs that I bought for work lol. Rated to -60°C but really meant as safety/work boots. They're bulky as hell, I feel if I took their liners out I could fit my Nepals inside them, but I can fit my microspikes and snow shoes on them just barely!
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