Agree, 100% and I think should always be the focal point in snow travel training of any kind.Boggy B wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:06 am knowing how to self-belay (I hate this term) with an axe is equally as important as knowing how to arrest, and not falling should be of utmost concern on hard snow. Maybe that sounds obvious, but knowing when it's not possible to arrest will likely make you climb more safely.
Ice axe self arrest
Forum rules
- This is a mountaineering forum, so please keep your posts on-topic. Posts do not all have to be related to the 14ers but should at least be mountaineering-related.
- Personal attacks and confrontational behavior will result in removal from the forum at the discretion of the administrators.
- Do not use this forum to advertise, sell photos or other products or promote a commercial website.
- Posts will be removed at the discretion of the site administrator or moderator(s), including: Troll posts, posts pushing political views or religious beliefs, and posts with the purpose of instigating conflict within the forum.
Re: Ice axe self arrest
- XterraRob
- Posts: 1123
- Joined: 7/20/2015
- 14ers: 42 7
- 13ers: 14
- Trip Reports (4)
Re: Ice axe self arrest
It's easier to self arrest when you have more effective tools for the job.
Plus, you can yell "I'm Batman!" as you slow yourself.
Plus, you can yell "I'm Batman!" as you slow yourself.
RIP - M56
Re-introduce Grizzly Bears into the Colorado Wilderness™
Re-introduce Grizzly Bears into the Colorado Wilderness™
- Canadian_bass
- Posts: 69
- Joined: 3/2/2007
- 14ers: 17
- Trip Reports (0)
Re: Ice axe self arrest
Practice is key. I've found mental imagery helpful. Trying to see in my mind how I'm going to organize my body for the different fall variations and how that will feel.
I had an unplanned self-arrest on Mount Washington a few years ago that held. It happens super fast but I only slipped a few feet so didn't get going very fast.
To echo others, its best not to fall in the first place. Make sure your traction is appropriate and your footwork is sound and focused.
I had an unplanned self-arrest on Mount Washington a few years ago that held. It happens super fast but I only slipped a few feet so didn't get going very fast.
To echo others, its best not to fall in the first place. Make sure your traction is appropriate and your footwork is sound and focused.
Re: Ice axe self arrest
Reading through the thread again to digest more of the details...
bdloftin77 initially said "If you’re on your back, roll to whichever side is closest to the pick," but seano implied that you should plant the pick in the snow above the shoulder opposite from the hand you're using to hold the head of the axe (and bdloftin77 edited to confirm).
I looked at Freedom of the Hills again, and the drawings suggest rolling to whichever side is closest to the pick if you're on your back.
Is this a matter of preference? Or am I misunderstanding?
bdloftin77 initially said "If you’re on your back, roll to whichever side is closest to the pick," but seano implied that you should plant the pick in the snow above the shoulder opposite from the hand you're using to hold the head of the axe (and bdloftin77 edited to confirm).
I looked at Freedom of the Hills again, and the drawings suggest rolling to whichever side is closest to the pick if you're on your back.
Is this a matter of preference? Or am I misunderstanding?
- SamWerner
- Posts: 102
- Joined: 12/18/2018
- 14ers: 37 3
- Trip Reports (0)
Re: Ice axe self arrest
I'm not as experienced as some other people on here, but I'm fairly certain that if you're holding the pick in your right hand, you roll to the right (i.e. the closer side to the pick). If you roll the other way, you put the spike under your body before you can plant the pick, which could stick in the snow and wrench it out of your hands. I would go with what FotH says, though others can weigh in more here.ekalina wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:51 pm Reading through the thread again to digest more of the details...
bdloftin77 initially said "If you’re on your back, roll to whichever side is closest to the pick," but seano implied that you should plant the pick in the snow above the shoulder opposite from the hand you're using to hold the head of the axe (and bdloftin77 edited to confirm).
I looked at Freedom of the Hills again, and the drawings suggest rolling to whichever side is closest to the pick if you're on your back.
Is this a matter of preference? Or am I misunderstanding?
Re: Ice axe self arrest
years ago, someone on the forums took a big group of people up st mary's glacier to just practice crampon and ice axe use. I went, borrowed some gear to practice, and found it really helpful. Maybe someone will do that again
I've had to self arrest a few times, usually after a glissade gets too fast. Its fairly easy once you've practiced.
I've had to self arrest a few times, usually after a glissade gets too fast. Its fairly easy once you've practiced.
After climbing a great hill, one only finds that there are many more hills to climb. -Nelson Mandela
Whenever I climb I am followed by a dog called Ego. -Nietzsche
Whenever I climb I am followed by a dog called Ego. -Nietzsche
Re: Ice axe self arrest
Yes, that makes sense to me. That way you can start engaging the pick before you are fully turned around belly down (and this should in turn also help with turning).SamWerner wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:59 pmI'm not as experienced as some other people on here, but I'm fairly certain that if you're holding the pick in your right hand, you roll to the right (i.e. the closer side to the pick). If you roll the other way, you put the spike under your body before you can plant the pick, which could stick in the snow and wrench it out of your hands. I would go with what FotH says, though others can weigh in more here.
- bdloftin77
- Posts: 1090
- Joined: 9/23/2013
- 14ers: 58 1
- 13ers: 58
- Trip Reports (2)
Re: Ice axe self arrest
It was a year ago when I practiced, so my memory is a little fuzzy on that part. I'll let others chime in. I believe one direction is easier and more efficient, but rolling on my carpet carrying an invisible ice axe, it's hard to remember which direction. If/when you go out and practice, one direction might seem a lot quicker/more efficient than the other.. use that one.ekalina wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:51 pm Reading through the thread again to digest more of the details...
bdloftin77 initially said "If you’re on your back, roll to whichever side is closest to the pick," but seano implied that you should plant the pick in the snow above the shoulder opposite from the hand you're using to hold the head of the axe (and bdloftin77 edited to confirm).
I looked at Freedom of the Hills again, and the drawings suggest rolling to whichever side is closest to the pick if you're on your back.
Is this a matter of preference? Or am I misunderstanding?
This link seems to indicate rolling in the direction of the axe head:
https://www.neilhopkins.us/mountaineeri ... rrest.html
- bdloftin77
- Posts: 1090
- Joined: 9/23/2013
- 14ers: 58 1
- 13ers: 58
- Trip Reports (2)
Re: Ice axe self arrest
Here's a video of a guy practicing self-arresting from different positions. Go to 4:40 to see the self-arrest footage. (Side note - he seems to think rolling toward the axe head if on your back is best)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc8Lau6u2Bw
Notice how he's able to stop faster when he really uses his core to push against the axe at shoulder level, vs when he doesn't press as hard and further above his shoulder. That's what my instructor kept emphasizing.. Use your core to push the pick into the snow as much as possible, slowing down as quickly as possible. If you don't have a big runoff, this could save your life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc8Lau6u2Bw
Notice how he's able to stop faster when he really uses his core to push against the axe at shoulder level, vs when he doesn't press as hard and further above his shoulder. That's what my instructor kept emphasizing.. Use your core to push the pick into the snow as much as possible, slowing down as quickly as possible. If you don't have a big runoff, this could save your life.
Re: Ice axe self arrest
Very helpful video and article, especially the video. I can definitely see how getting your weight over the head of the axe once it's in the snow is key to a quick stop. And yes, I too am using my imaginary living room ice axe!
- nmjameswilson
- Posts: 316
- Joined: 9/7/2018
- 14ers: 58
- 13ers: 15
- Trip Reports (0)
- Contact:
Re: Ice axe self arrest
That would be great as I am sure a lot of people could use the training. I slide about 70 feet down Wilson Peak this year and could use it myself.Trotter wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:24 pm years ago, someone on the forums took a big group of people up st mary's glacier to just practice crampon and ice axe use. I went, borrowed some gear to practice, and found it really helpful. Maybe someone will do that again
I've had to self arrest a few times, usually after a glissade gets too fast. Its fairly easy once you've practiced.
- Bale
- Posts: 266
- Joined: 6/9/2020
- Trip Reports (0)
Re: Ice axe self arrest
This. Some folks who think they are safe just because they have an axe may not realize how fast you go from zero to Mach 2 in the event of a slip. Someone (Krakauer?) said self-arrest is a plucky act at best. Make every axe and crampon placement your belay. When in doubt, go into dagger position or carry an extra tool, self-arrest should be absolutely last resort.Boggy B wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:06 am Snow consistency is a factor as well. If it's bulletproof and at least moderately steep (more so than in the video), your chance of arresting before you're going too fast is pretty much nil; the first contact the pick makes will rip the axe out of your hands, and a leash in this scenario is arguably a liability as it will ensure a pointy metal thing accompanies you to the bottom of the slope.
So, knowing how to self-belay (I hate this term) with an axe is equally as important as knowing how to arrest, and not falling should be of utmost concern on hard snow. Maybe that sounds obvious, but knowing when it's not possible to arrest will likely make you climb more safely.
The earth, like the sun, like the air, belongs to everyone - and to no one. - Edward Abbey