Kedrowski: 2016 Ski Project Controversy

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AnnaG22
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Re: Looking at Lindsey Lately

Post by AnnaG22 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:46 am

Those books are for the pictures.

But reading them is rather reassuring (in a non-mountain-related way)...if writing like that can be published...
"The love of wilderness is more than a hunger for what is always beyond reach; it is also an expression of loyalty to the earth, the earth which bore us and sustains us, the only home we shall ever know, the only paradise we ever need – if only we had the eyes to see." -Ed Abbey

"I get scared sometimes—lots of times—but it's not bad. You know? I feel close to myself. When I'm out there at night, I feel close to my own body, I can feel my blood moving, my skin and my fingernails, everything, it's like I'm full of electricity and I'm glowing in the dark—I'm on fire almost—I'm burning away into nothing—but it doesn't matter because I know exactly who I am." from The Things They Carried
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Re: Looking at Lindsey Lately

Post by BillMiddlebrook » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:00 am

justiner wrote:OH, this is the sleeping on the summits dude?

This is the guy that did the trip report about finding the hurt person on Snowmass?

In 2014, I just missed him when I reached the summit of Yale.

He left his business card at the top. It said something like, "Let me help you summit your personal Everest" or something like that, which I thought was in bad taste, giving the tragedies on the mountain in that year. Who leaves business cards at the top of a 14er advertising the guiding/mentoring business? Barf .

I find this person less than appealing. Whatever, I don't care anymore, I hope he stays safe. From his writing, he sounded like some random 22 year old. But, I don't trust anything this guy says or does. Doctor my butt.
Oh my. I, too, just figured out this was JK. That Snowmass picture thing was one of lowest things I've ever seen related to mountaineering.

I hope it all works out for him and he finishes.
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Re: Looking at Lindsey Lately

Post by SnowAlien » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:04 am

bergsteigen wrote: I haven't studied all his descents, but if he does what you say Nat, Dawson won't recognize his claim if and when he does finish. Nor should any other self respecting ski mountaineer. Skiing on a peak is very different than skiing a peak.
Ok, so I know about at least "continuous 1k vert" line off the summit rule, but can't find it in print. Not sure he knows about it.
And I've been on a fair number of peaks this winter, sometimes the same day as JK, sometimes a day after. A few had snow coverage off top, some didn't. Quality of snow is completely another subject :) I chose to leave my skis roughly near 13k mark. I do recall though that Davenport skied a fair number of peaks in winter, so it is definitely possible, minus the enjoyment factor probably.
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Re: Looking at Lindsey Lately

Post by bergsteigen » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:18 am

SnowAlien wrote:
bergsteigen wrote: I haven't studied all his descents, but if he does what you say Nat, Dawson won't recognize his claim if and when he does finish. Nor should any other self respecting ski mountaineer. Skiing on a peak is very different than skiing a peak.
Ok, so I know about at least "continuous 1k vert" line off the summit rule, but can't find it in print. Not sure he knows about it.
And I've been on a fair number of peaks this winter, sometimes the same day as JK, sometimes a day after. A few had snow coverage off top, some didn't. Quality of snow is completely another subject :) I chose to leave my skis roughly near 13k mark. I do recall though that Davenport skied a fair number of peaks in winter, so it is definitely possible, minus the enjoyment factor probably.
Lou Dawson wrote:For his project (and for subsequent projects) Dawson defines a ski descent of a fourteener as skiing "the best (most often the longest) continuous descent available on an average snow year, almost always from the exact summit, with the exception being the few fourteeners (such as Wetterhorn and El Diente) that have rocky summit blocks or boulder caps that were never known to be in skiable condition prior to the project. "
"Since you're skiing natural snow, some descents might have gaps where you remove your skis and move a few feet across rock or tundra. Again, if you're up there on an average snow year with decent coverage, such maneuvers are legit so long as they are not excessive. But, and this is the big BUT, if I'm on a peak with bad coverage because it's too early in the year or a drought, and I have to connect snow patches that would otherwise touch each other, then I don't count it as a descent of the peak. Instead, I go back again and again 'till I get it right. To me this is a critical part of my standards, because doing otherwise would allow me a sort of 'post modern' style of ski mountaineering wherein I could claim a descent of a peak even if I skied a few hundred feet of snow on the thing in the middle of summer. I don't think people would buy that, and it just wouldn't feel good."
The 1K rule is mainly for the possible link ups or doubles. Some do it, others didn't (moneymike). I've done 4 combo's: Sunshine/Redcloud, Bel/Ox, Ellingwood/Blanca, Castle/Conundrum, I checked my GPS on all but C&C (mainly cause Conundrum is unranked). The other 3 have a pretty defined 'bottom of the line' in a valley, where it would just be an exit ski, mostly flat anyway. While Oxford it's recommended to reascend Belford, since I think that drainage out gets heinous.
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Re: Looking at Lindsey Lately

Post by Monster5 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:33 am

I don't mean this to be rude or controversial, but, based on the Dawson definition, does that mean you would have to repeat Maroon if you wanted to claim "skied them all" and The Doctor would have to repeat Little Bear, among others, since he butt slid down half a K on it?

bergsteigen wrote:For his project Dawson defines a ski descent of a fourteener as skiing "the best (most often the longest) continuous descent available on an average snow year, almost always from the exact summit, with the exception being the few fourteeners that have rocky summit blocks or boulder caps that were never known to be in skiable condition prior to the project.
"The road to alpine climbing is pocked and poorly marked, ending at an unexpectedly closed gate 5 miles from the trailhead." - MP user Beckerich
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Re: Looking at Lindsey Lately

Post by bergsteigen » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:43 am

Monster5 wrote:I don't mean this to be rude or controversial, but, based on the Dawson definition, does that mean you would have to repeat Maroon if you wanted to claim "skied them all" and The Doctor would have to repeat Little Bear, among others, since he butt slid down half a K on it?

bergsteigen wrote:For his project Dawson defines a ski descent of a fourteener as skiing "the best (most often the longest) continuous descent available on an average snow year, almost always from the exact summit, with the exception being the few fourteeners that have rocky summit blocks or boulder caps that were never known to be in skiable condition prior to the project.
Technically yes. While I did ski over 1K on Maroon, I am also highly likely to repeat the ski for a friend who needs the peak for his list. I have repeated many on my list, not necessarily because I don't think they count, but because I enjoy doing it. The ones I truly don't want to repeat, I have made sure they count. Maroon is a classic ski with a few great lines. I look forward to a time when conditions and partners allow me to go back to ski it again.
"Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games." - Ernest Hemingway (or was it Barnaby Conrad?)
Your knees only get so many bumps in life, don't waste them on moguls!
“No athlete is truly tested until they’ve stared an injury in the face and come out on the other side stronger than ever” -anonymous

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Re: Looking at Lindsey Lately

Post by SoCool » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:56 am

Monster5 wrote:would have to repeat Little Bear, among others, since he butt slid down half a K on it?
The risks are apparent when reading his 3/19 LB report:

"My skis wouldn’t bite when I carved my right turn into the slope. I lost my balance and fell backwards. I spun around and plunged down the hill and into the couloir. I immediately accelerated. My mind screamed, “self- arrest, self arrest, stop, stop, stop!” But my friends around me watched and heard nothing but silence. My ice axe got ripped from my hands, my skis popped off and went flying. I accelerated some more. Somehow I first managed to get my head up and face my feet out like I was riding downstream floating in a river or down a slide in the park. I don’t know how but I steered myself away from the walls of the narrow choke point in the hourglass. Realizing I had no tools to stop me, I turned around and dug in with every other part of my body: mainly my knees, hands, elbows, and feet. A hundred and fifty yards later I came to an abrupt stop."

This thread is way off topic now, but it's more fun this way.
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Re: Looking at Lindsey Lately

Post by polar » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:52 pm

lordhelmut wrote:online reacharounds
Dammit! I didn't know what this means so I googled it. I'm pretty sure I've just been flagged by IT at work now.
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Re: Looking at Lindsey Lately

Post by justiner » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:23 pm

I'm guessing Jon is lurking,

http://14erskirecord.com/peaks-35-36-gr ... l-25-2016/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Looking at Lindsey Lately

Post by KansanClimber » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:02 pm

Glad someone brought up the JK "attempt"...it didn't seem to me that he was meeting the standards in place by the people he is purportedly trying to beat, but then again I've only skied a few 14ers and none from the true summit so I'm no authority.

Also, the only person I'll respect with a selfie stick is Killian, and that's because every time he posts something about skiing I almost s**t myself.
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Re: Looking at Lindsey Lately

Post by bergsteigen » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:27 pm

justiner wrote:I'm guessing Jon is lurking,

http://14erskirecord.com/peaks-35-36-gr ... l-25-2016/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of course he is. Gotta keep up with the media presence. He likely screen scraped info right off my website. Only a few of us actually keep track of 14er ski finishers, I have the list on my page(s).

If you are doing lists for fun, then you don't care how you do things. You also don't tend to push the risks either. If you want to be recognized by your peers for a specific accomplishment, a few standards/rules/ethics come into play.

If you are writing a book, then you need content and marketing. The basic consumer probably won't care about the skimo communities thoughts. They're just looking for pretty pictures and to live vicariously. Only a select few care about the ski the peak vs skiing on a peak issues, and I'm guessing the general public wouldn't even get the difference. They'll be impressed either way - there by selling more books. And drama and excitement will sell more too.
Last edited by bergsteigen on Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games." - Ernest Hemingway (or was it Barnaby Conrad?)
Your knees only get so many bumps in life, don't waste them on moguls!
“No athlete is truly tested until they’ve stared an injury in the face and come out on the other side stronger than ever” -anonymous

http://otinasadventures.com @otina
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Re: Looking at Lindsey Lately

Post by AlexeyD » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:46 pm

I don't think it's so much the risk-taking itself that's an issue...at the end of the day we all do it, and the level of risk tolerance is a personal choice. I do, however, think that one needs to be honest about that risk level, both with themselves but especially when you are writing about your actions for others to read. Not doing so is a disservice to both oneself and one's readers, and in particular to aspiring climbers/skiers or whatever who hold the person in high regard. Like, when you trigger an avy and still insist you made the right decisions and write so publicly, what kind of message does that send to the young guy/girl just getting into skimo? It's not just about what you do and why, it's also about how you present it and what lessons you learn from it.
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