Petition to rename Kit Carson

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Do you agree that Kit Carson should be renamed Mount Crestone?

Yes - rename it!
17
6%
No - do not rename it!
264
94%
 
Total votes: 281
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JsinDeAZ
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by JsinDeAZ » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:24 pm

susanjoypaul wrote:
Thank you Mother Teresa.

For matters that may interest you, based on your comments, please see http://www.soupkitchens.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Now run along. Somewhere out there on the big World Wide Web is another thread full of sinners in dire need of your moral judgment.
Thank you :D I'm a big Mother T fan and to be compared to her... be still my heart.

Oooh, ummm, yep. For matters that interest me, the website would probably be http://www.poopkitchens.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Just how I roll....

I am Morality Man!! :twisted:
Last edited by JsinDeAZ on Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by somethingrandom » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:23 pm

JsinDeAZ wrote:Thank you :D I'm a big Mother T fan and to be compared to here... be still my heart.

Oooh, ummm, yep. For matters that interest me, the website would probably be http://www.poopkitchens.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Just how I roll....

I am Morality Man!! :twisted:
First, Mother T? What is she? An ex gang banger out of LA and now plays on Law and Order? No, it is Mother Teresa and if you want to be compared, it would be to "her", not "here".

Second, what the F are you doing making poop in the kitchen? Not sure I want to "roll with that"... :-&
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by DeTour » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:35 pm

Regarding Keno Menechino's comments: From my limited experience in CO, it seems a lot of the locals in the nearby towns really don't have much of a clue about the peaks of "their" mountains. Haven't been to Crestone, but I've seen it in Westcliffe, Lake City, etc. Most of the locals we talked to had never been to the summit of a 14er, but they felt the need to warn us "visitors" about how dangerous they are. And yes, they do willingly accept our business, which is fine, but it's far from charity on their part.

So when Keno talks about how the people of Crestone hike "their" mountain, I have to wonder, how many of them really do hike it to the top, or even at all? He also gives them credit for trailbuilding - isn't that mostly done by CFI, and isn't CFI a statewide group? Granted, the SAR teams probably have a lot of locals, and I'm sure they do laudable, self-sacrificing work - as do the members of every SAR team in mountain/wilderness areas throughout the U.S. and world. My point is, I think he claims a little too much "ownership" of the mountain for a few folks in a town that happens to be located at the foot of it (sort of).

Here's a thought: maybe a vote should be taken by good old-fashioned paper ballot. You can vote once a day, as many days as you wish. Put the ballot box at the summit of Kit Carson Peak. I wonder what results that would bring.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by BCthetwo » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:56 pm

What is it with the arrogance of people that makes the naming of something after anything other than it's description so damn important? Bitching about a "liberal minority"changing the name of something that was originally named by ONE GUY? Obviously this Keno dude's a douchebag but cripe, he's using the methods and power at his disposal to affect change in his interest, the same thing Kit Carson did!
Here's a thought- nobody spends a fricking nickel in that town if they don't like them changing the name of a rock.
Then again, that's probably too big of a sacrifice for the ones who climb for the math.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by SteveBonowski » Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:57 am

This is a real interesting thread. I'll disagree rather strongly with HighPilgrim. Sorry you had a bad experience with ONE person in Crestone. I've been going down there for about 5 years now, working for CMC on access issues for the Great Sand Dunes and the Cottonwood Creek trail. Everyone I've met in conjunction with these meetings has been pretty nice. I'll also offer that Keno doesn't seem to speak for all the locals. No one has ever mentioned the name change to me in conversations even though I'm known as a climber to the people I've met. I can't recall ever meeting him or her.

The trail to Willow Lake has been in place since I first went up it almost 20 years ago. Other posters like Jim Davies also probably did it way back when. Maybe some of the town residents work with the USFS to maintain it. For DeTour, most of the recent reconstruction work on trails in the South Colony Basin and over to the other side has been done by the Rocky Mountain Field Institute from Colorado Springs, not CFI. Both CFI and CMC have been involved, however.

For Ed Haman, yes, the peaks are in the Rio Grande National Forest now. Prior to about 2005, Kit Carson and Challenger Point were privately owned; along with most of the Cottonwood Creek & Spanish Creek trails; as part of the Baca Ranch, an old Mexican land grant property. The feds bought the ranch in the mid-2000s in conjunction with wanting to protect the then Great Sand Dunes National Monument. The Monument was enlarged and made into a National Park and Preserve. The peaks in question were transferred into the Sangre de Cristo Wilderness. Cottonwood Creek & Spanish Creek trailheads remain in private ownership different from the former Ranch. The trail to Willow Lake has always been USFS, with a then undetermined property boundary just to the south of the trail and above the lake. It may be that there is still a sense of private ownership among some of the locals.

Other than politics, I can't see much reason for changing the names of the peaks. Like it or not, Kit Carson is part of Colorado's heritage. Same for names like Evans, Long, Pike, Gray, Torrey, Shavano, Ouray, Antero, etc. I voted no in the poll.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by susanjoypaul » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:40 am

BCthetwo wrote:Here's a thought- nobody spends a fricking nickel in that town if they don't like them changing the name of a rock.
That suggestion was already covered about a month ago, in response to River's "threat" of decreased hospitality for those of us not in agreement with the proposal: http://www.14ers.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 16#p333116
BCthetwo wrote:Then again, that's probably too big of a sacrifice for the ones who climb for the math.
Yeah, those people who "climb for the math" - don't you just hate those people? :-D
SteveBonowski wrote:This is a real interesting thread. I'll disagree rather strongly with HighPilgrim. Sorry you had a bad experience with ONE person in Crestone. I've been going down there for about 5 years now, working for CMC on access issues for the Great Sand Dunes and the Cottonwood Creek trail. Everyone I've met in conjunction with these meetings has been pretty nice. I'll also offer that Keno doesn't seem to speak for all the locals. No one has ever mentioned the name change to me in conversations even though I'm known as a climber to the people I've met. I can't recall ever meeting him or her.
Thanks for the info, Steve. I usually drive right through Crestone and just set up camp, but the one time I *did* stop, I couldn't get a single motel owner to open their door - even with all of the "Vacancy" signs turned on. I don't doubt highpilgrim's experience, nor yours. You have to admit his was pretty disturbing though... I guess it just depends on who you happen to run into down there.

Regardless, I don't think the reputation of an entire town should be based on the actions of a few - either the bad experiences any of us have had down there, or the hateful posts aimed at hikers on this thread. I would probably give the place another shot the next time I'm in the neighborhood.
SteveBonowski wrote:Other than politics, I can't see much reason for changing the names of the peaks. Like it or not, Kit Carson is part of Colorado's heritage. Same for names like Evans, Long, Pike, Gray, Torrey, Shavano, Ouray, Antero, etc. I voted no in the poll.
Good post - lots of interesting info... thanks for sharing your knowledge and opinions.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by highpilgrim » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:34 pm

susanjoypaul wrote: I guess it just depends on who you happen to run into down there.
Just like anywhere else.

Although I will share a couple of other points that extend the incident beyond both Steve's and Keno's "one person" comments. I went back and checked my pics and I actually missed the date by three years. It actually happened in October of 2002 :shock:. I guess time flies when you're having fun...

Anyway, this was mid-late October on a Saturday and anyone that's been there know's that's not a huge tourist time of the year around Crestone. It was early afternoon when we got to the store and it was relatively full. We reported what had happended to the woman behind the register, showed her were the gear was located on a map, and in mid discussion someone we now have named "Mountain Dan" started his rant about peak baggers. And we didn't look like weekend warriors; we were well dressed for the weather and had all the gear necessary for a winter outing. Of course none of that mattered to MD who continued on about his experiences with us peak baggers.

While nobody else there chose to jump on his bandwagon, neither did any of them refute what he had said, or suggest that he was a just a cratchety fart and should be ignored. In fact it seemed like what he said resonated with some of the eight or ten people there. There were a couple of smiles at out discomfort. And no one was very forthcoming about the gear/climber up on the mountain. It took a good bit of further questioning and prodding before enough of the story came out so we could understand. Altogether it was an uncomfortable afternoon and not the way I thought I'd be spending a big chunk of a far too infrequent climbing trip.

So Steve, if you're suggesting there are nice people in Crestone, I'm sure I could agree with that. Fred Bauder seems to be one of them. Well spoken and reasonable and I wouldn't mind hiking with him some time. I'm sure there are others. But not everyone there welcomes visitors with open arms. And the landowners that control access to the Cottonwood/Spanish Creek Trailheads dont' seem to be to that open, do they? The western approaches to the Crestones are some of my favorite areas in the whole state and are off limits because they own the area at the trailhead and not much further, effectively cutting off access to whole drainages that they don't own. Not at all like Culebra where the landowner controls most of the mountain; more like someone down in Telluride. That's not much of a welcome to visitors. More of a leave us alone it seems to me.

Steve, I understand that you're involved in some way with negotiating for more access? I wish you well in that effort but I'm not holding my breath; even when paid off the hostage holders take their time in allowing resolution to happen.

In the community's defense I will say that 2002 was apparently a bad year for accidents on the western side of the Sangres and maybe their skin was worn a little thin as a result. I can understand the disruption and cost associated with multiple rescues and the effect it would have on a small town. It just seemed a little too easy for them to take the low road in explaining that to us.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by Bean » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:43 pm

Keno Menechino wrote:Gosh, what a bunch of mean spirited people who post here! I’m not going to waste my time copying and quoting your silly statements, I’ll just comment on them; you know what you wrote….

So several of you don’t want to be looked at as our guests while on the mountain? Fine. But tell me, when you get lost or hurt up there, then, does that mean you don’t want us locals coming up the trail to save you, either? I can tell you one thing, it is the locals from Crestone who are the first responders up on that mountain - several times a year - when climbers are killed, hurt, or lost – every time! But again, we are good people and we risk our own lives sometimes going up there to save you - and would still save even you rude folks who post here, even if you didn’t ask us to.

To judge an entire town because of one bad encounter in a store is so ridiculous that I don’t need to even comment any more on that.

As far as Fred and his proposal goes, we told him we would be happy to support his wanting to name the top peak “Kit Carson”, if he would just join in with us on the name change. But he didn’t want to do that. So we just left our second proposal on naming the top peak as it was.

As far as all the people from 1860 being dead, gee, no kidding. But guess what, we still have people alive today who live here, some in their 80s, some a lot younger, and we all have memories of the mountain, including a few locals who were around in the 1940s when the news of the name being incorrect first was known in town. But oh yeah, only the memories of you climbers should count, who cares what the locals think.

Finally to Susan. I already have told and directed several members of the BGN to this thread so they can read all of this. You and your friends’ mean spirited comments and putdowns here directed against the good people of Crestone should work against your side. You folks here only care about your egos and how many 14ers you can climb, and that isn’t a good reason to keep calling the mountain (which we locals maintain for your use) by this incorrect name.

I’m done with this joint now, I will not be back to read any more of your dribble. It is a waste of time talking to close-minded people who don’t care about others. But let me leave you folks with one thing…. The locals of Crestone aren’t dirt just because some of you say so, and we will be back with a new proposal in time to change this name if we lose in this first fight. We will not give up!

You all have a happy holiday season.
What a spectacular effort at falsely claiming the moral high ground.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by Fred_Bauder » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:01 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnJL4ErQK8k&" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by sevenvii » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:20 pm

I wonder if there was so much hub-bub in Poland when they wanted to change the name of Holocaust Peak.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by BCthetwo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:05 pm

Landlick,
You're right, I don't have any idea what Kit Carson did or did not do and you're right that KIT CARSON and WHAT HE DID is part of the history of this country (and I thank my lucky stars that he did it), but the naming of a rock is not. You are, however, very confused if you believe that wrongs and rights are perception. The "perception" is the idea that the name is so important that it should never change.

And P.S.
Quit calling me stupid
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by MountainHiker » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:32 pm

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