Petition to rename Kit Carson

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Do you agree that Kit Carson should be renamed Mount Crestone?

Yes - rename it!
17
6%
No - do not rename it!
264
94%
 
Total votes: 281
Keno Menechino
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by Keno Menechino » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:27 pm

Just needed to drop by here again to reply to what Susan Paul had to say on Denver Public Radio about this:
PAUL: "Words still mean something to some people and memories mean something to me. It seems wrong that my memories and the memories of many many people who’ve summitted that peak are really being overlooked and ignored."]
I agree, words, names and memories do mean something - they mean a lot to so many people! But Susan, what about the locals of Crestone and their memories? You don't seem to live by your own words. Almost an entire community wants their memories of always calling the mountain by its correct name, restored. But because a handful of you spend one day up there, a entire community who lives by the mountain's side and who have climbed it hundreds of time for decades, should be silented and not be able to call the mountain what it always has been called by the locals? The rest of the world needs to get this name right - just like they did before 1875, when the mapping error took place.

The name "Kit Carson" has been incorrect for years now and this is why us locals started this entire thing. That is where you and the others here are blind and not looking at both sides. Yes, names do mean something. But Susan, you come across here as being selfish. Almost the entire community where the mountain is located wants the name changed back to having "Crestone" in its name, yet you feel only your point of view should matter, because you climbed it one time? You are nothing like the people who live in the town of Crestone. We climb that mountain and maintain it's trails for its beauty, not because it is a notch in our 14er book. Us Crestone locals also save people - like you and your friends here, who get lost or hurt up on that mountain - because that mountain is a part of our home town and you are our guests when you are up there. We do not treat you rudely when you come here, so why are you being rude to us and our memories? Our town was named after this mountain in 1880, we do know what its correct name is, we just want the rest of you to get it correct. But to you, it is just another 14er you climbed and I guess you like to brag about that. Please check your ego. Yet the truth of the matter is - you still climbed this mountain anyway! That fact will not change if the name changes, you can still tell others you climb Mount Crestone. But because you are so selfish and don't care of the feelings of others, you organize your friends here to go against the wishes of a community who has been living with confusion over this name for over 100 yeas now. Gee, real sweet of you.

I lived in your neck of the woods for over 20 years. I know for a fact if somebody all of a sudden came to Colorado Springs and said "We just found out that Pikes Peak was renamed in 1875, and is officially 'Mount Whitey', and that is what everybody is now going to call it".... Would you or anybody else locally like that or accept that? No, you would not and you would keep calling the mountain "Pikes Peak" and you would work to change the mistake. Well Ms Paul, it's the same deal here. Crestone's main landmark had "Crestone" officially in its name once, and the locals want it change back to that name, a name it has been called since before 1880 when the town was named after it.
We still haven't heard a logical explanation for why the proposal contains a recommendation for naming the summit "Tranquility Point." That particular point cannot be defended with a single reason - historical, political, or otherwise - provided in the petition, or the proposal. Doesn't anyone else question the reasoning behind this recommendation?
Nobody ever asked me this before. It is simple to answer, too. The highest peak up on this mountain has no name! It is one of the highest peaks in Colorado and it has no name, shouldn't it? The second and third highest peaks on this mountain have names (which by the way were changed in '89 and '02 by outsiders - nobody here at this board was against those new name back then, so why protested our town's two proposals now, why?), so why doesn't the highest one?

It seemed to us locals that since we were going to try to correct the name mistake for the entire mountain, that we might as well name this unnamed peak while we were at it, too. No big deal and I find it hard to believe anybody would be against giving a peak a name so people like you climbers can tell your friends you climbed that peak, too.

BTW Susan, you know nothing about me if you think I'm doing this just to gain some kind of fame. Are you joking? Me? I am the complete opposite of that. I was asked to write up this proposal by Crestone's mayor, and the Board of Trustees of Crestone. That was the only reason I started this thing, for my community. We are a very close group of people here, like many other small towns across Colorado. But the last thing we want here is publicly for ourselves or our town. That is the kind of person I am and why I fit in this community so well.
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Rich H
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by Rich H » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:42 pm

Keno Menechino wrote: you are our guests when you are up there
no... I can't really see how you own the mountain and I am not your guest.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by BillMiddlebrook » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:56 pm

Keno Menechino wrote:It seemed to us locals that since we were going to try to correct the name mistake for the entire mountain, that we might as well name this unnamed peak while we were at it, too. No big deal and I find it hard to believe anybody would be against giving a peak a name so people like you climbers can tell your friends you climbed that peak, too.
PERFECT!!!

Let's name it "Kit Carson Peak"
Rich H wrote:
Keno Menechino wrote: you are our guests when you are up there
no... I can't really see how you own the mountain and I am not your guest.
That's right, I'm not anyone's "guest" when I'm up there. Maybe on Culebra, but certainly not on Kit Carson Mountain or The Crestones.
If I was a "guest," someone would carry my bags to Willow Lake.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by kbmiller » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:03 pm

"Almost an entire community wants their memories of always calling the mountain by its correct name, restored"

Any bets that no one is currently alive that has a memory of when the name was changed in 1880? What memories? What a crock.

I have a compromise: The fine citizens of Crestone can call Kit Carson whatever they want, and the rest of the world will call it Kit Carson peak. That way, everyone is happy, so to speak.
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mountainrev
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by mountainrev » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:18 pm

Keno Menechino wrote: I know for a fact if somebody all of a sudden came to Colorado Springs and said "We just found out that Pikes Peak was renamed in 1875, and is officially 'Mount Whitey', and that is what everybody is now going to call it".... Would you or anybody else locally like that or accept that? No, you would not and you would keep calling the mountain "Pikes Peak" and you would work to change the mistake. Well Ms Paul, it's the same deal here. Crestone's main landmark had "Crestone" officially in its name once, and the locals want it change back to that name, a name it has been called since before 1880 when the town was named after it.
Here's where your analogy fails, and fails miserably: This mountain has been called Kit Carson since 1875. Your analogy suggests changing the name of a mountain 135 years later--the very thing you are proposing! Do you not see the irony here?
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by susanjoypaul » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:49 pm

Keno Menechino wrote:
susanjoypaul wrote:We still haven't heard a logical explanation for why the proposal contains a recommendation for naming the summit "Tranquility Point." That particular point cannot be defended with a single reason - historical, political, or otherwise - provided in the petition, or the proposal. Doesn't anyone else question the reasoning behind this recommendation?
Nobody ever asked me this before. It is simple to answer, too. The highest peak up on this mountain has no name! It is one of the highest peaks in Colorado and it has no name, shouldn't it? The second and third highest peaks on this mountain have names (which by the way were changed in '89 and '02 by outsiders - nobody here at this board was against those new name back then, so why protested our town's two proposals now, why?), so why doesn't the highest one?

It seemed to us locals that since we were going to try to correct the name mistake for the entire mountain, that we might as well name this unnamed peak while we were at it, too. No big deal and I find it hard to believe anybody would be against giving a peak a name so people like you climbers can tell your friends you climbed that peak, too.
Dude, for a newspaper reporter you are truly lax in *reading comprehension* skills. From: http://www.14ers.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 43#p335743
  • Along the same lines, naming the summit itself “Tranquility Point,” which is also in the proposal, is an even worse idea! The reasons for this are really pretty straight-forward.

    There are over 5,000 peaks in the state of Colorado, and I can’t think of a single one that has a separate name for its summit, than for the peak itself. I can tell you with 100% certainty that there isn’t a single ranked 14er in Colorado that has a unique and discrete name for its actual highpoint, or summit.

    And there are many 14ers with sub-summits: here in the Front Range alone, we have Mount Evans and West Evans, Longs Peak has unranked 14er “Southeast Longs” and Centennial Mount Meeker. Pikes Peak has a number of ranked and unranked sub-summits. In the Sawatch, Mount Massive has its main summit, Mount Massive, plus North Massive, South Massive, Massive Green, and two other 14,000 points, one of which is also the highpoint of the Hunter-Fryingpan Wilderness. But the mountain – and its summit – is still just Mount Massive. That’s the case for *all* of the Colorado 14ers.

    The only 14er I know of that’s summit is named differently than the mountain is Mount Rainier, in Washington State. Its summit is also sometimes called Columbia Crest, but no one ever says “I did Columbia Crest.” They say I did Mount Rainier. And Rainier has two sub-summits – Point Success, which doesn’t have enough prominence to be ranked, but Liberty Cap does. So when someone says they climbed Mount Rainier, or summitted Mount Rainier, it’s assumed they reached the highest point, also known as Columbia Crest. But that’s a Washington State thing... we don’t do that here in Colorado.

    The bottom line is, there are no other Colorado 14ers with summits named something other than the mountain’s name – and if this Keno fellow, the newspaper reporter who moved to Crestone a few years ago and wrote the proposal for changing the name of the peak doesn’t even know this, what is he doing naming a 14er? He’s obviously not very well-versed in mountain-naming convention. And it’s not as if this stuff is a big secret... if he had just done his homework, spent a few minutes on 14ers.com or Lists of John, or even just skimmed Roach’s guide to the Colorado 14ers, he *would* know it. Honestly, it’s a bit offensive to me, and probably other mountaineers as well, that someone so ignorant of mountain protocol can just come along and expect to break with that tradition.
But if you insist - in your vast ignorance of Colorado mountain naming convention - on giving the summit a unique name, then my vote is for Kit Carson Peak. Fred Bauder submitted a proposal to this effect, and I have already communicated my support of it to the BGN.
Keno Menechino wrote:I know for a fact if somebody all of a sudden came to Colorado Springs and said "We just found out that Pikes Peak was renamed in 1875, and is officially 'Mount Whitey', and that is what everybody is now going to call it".... Would you or anybody else locally like that or accept that? No, you would not and you would keep calling the mountain "Pikes Peak" and you would work to change the mistake. Well Ms Paul, it's the same deal here. Crestone's main landmark had "Crestone" officially in its name once, and the locals want it change back to that name, a name it has been called since before 1880 when the town was named after it.
That's just stupid. Pikes Peak was once known as "James Peak," and "Grand Peak," but everyone that knew it by those names is dead now, and there are no maps, trip reports, guide books or websites currently in use that reference those names, and no one alive here in Colorado Springs is writhing on the ground in pain now, suffering the "pain of a hundred years" over the name Pikes Peak.

Just like everyone who knows Kit Carson as Mount Crestone is dead now. Or, apparently, doesn't know how to *read* a map, trip report, guide book, or website. Do your community a real favor, Keno, and volunteer to teach these skills at the nearest elementary school. Oh, wait a minute...
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by hatidua » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:57 pm

A given group of people can decide, for whatever reason, to rename just about anything they want. However, it likely won't have any impact on what people actually CALL it. A recent case in point is the renaming of a certain fish: "jewfish", to "goliath grouper". Some professor in Miami of the hebrew persuasion sought to rename a fish in the hyper-PC climate of today. Fine. It got changed. 1% of people where jewfish exist now refer to them as anything other than jewfish. They'll be called jewfish until long after I'm 6' under.

Rename Kit Carson to Microsoft Peak? Fine. Everyone will still call it Kit Carson. :wink:
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by Johnson » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:16 pm

[quote="BillMiddlebrookThat's right, I'm not anyone's "guest" when I'm up there. Maybe on Culebra, but certainly not on Kit Carson Mountain or The Crestones.
If I was a "guest," someone would carry my bags to Willow Lake.[/quote]


Hummmm..... Not bad.... I say let them call it whatever they want and then let them carry my stuff since I am their guest! I like the way you think Bill. :wink:
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by highpilgrim » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:31 pm

Keno Menechino wrote: We do not treat you rudely when you come here, so why are you being rude to us and our memories? Our town was named after this mountain in 1880, we do know what its correct name is, we just want the rest of you to get it correct.
No Mr. Keno, you and your friends in Crestone aren't always so friendly to visitors. Five years ago while on a trip up Cottonwood Creek to climb Crestone Peak and Needle in late October, we had the unfortunate luck to come upon a climbing camp under the Red Gulley that was unoccupied and covered with new fallen snow. No tracks could be seen anywhere around the camp. Most of the route up the Peak from the camp was visible and with binoculars no one could be seen on the route. We felt uneasy about the lack of people and no visible climbers on a clear and sunny day and spent the entire morning and afternoon looking for what we felt sure was an injured climber somewhere above us on the mountain. Convinced that something was wrong and out of cell phone coverage we decended to our camp, spent the night in a brief storm and beat feet down the mountain early the next morning to get help.

We went to the general store in Crestone and asked for help and instead of interest and concern we were treated with contempt. One friendly neighbor of yours asked us if we knew why they called "people like us" peak baggers? His answer was that we climb the peaks and the fine people of Crestone bring us down in bags. There was no effort to understand anything about our wilderness skills or level of preparation, just a prejudiced knee-jerk stereotyping of people that weren't locals.

As to the missing climber that was the source of our worry, we were dismissively told (after the provocative comments) that "yeah, that climber had died weeks ago and had been hauled off the mountain". All of his gear, tent, sleeping bags, cooking tools and pack had been left in camp without any note of explanation for someone that might come after. We wasted our weekend looking for him and worrying about someone who had died weeks earlier because no one from Crestone could be troubled with leaving a note on gear they were unwilling to pack down.

So don't sell this line of crap about how friendly you all are to visitors. I've seen firsthand the welcome you extend to strangers.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by hatidua » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:43 pm

Keno Menechino wrote: you are our guests when you are up there
Would you be so kind as to exhibit your title to the land? :?:
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by 14erFred » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:56 pm

I find it highly presumptuous of anyone to claim to own a mountain, even in the case of privately "owned" peaks such Culebra, Sherman, and Bross. We are citizens of the Unites States, but the government does not "own" us. I live on the shore of Lake Michigan, but I do not "own" it. The citizens of the town of Crestone live at the base of Kit Carson, but they do not "own" the mountain.

The townspeople of Crestone need to find a more important issue to which to devote their time and energy. There are far more important matters in the world that need to be addressed than trying to rename the mountain to their liking. Why not devote time and effort to something that's much bigger and more important than the mountain? The citizens of Crestone should look beyond the mountain to the problems of poverty and injustice that lie outside their neighborhood and then work to change those things to what they want them to be. Why focus on changing the name of a local geological feature, when the world itself needs to be changed?

What myopic and limited vision the town has to see no further than their own backyard, while so many people suffer in this world. The people of Crestone have lost their sense of perspective and are making a mountain out of a molehill. Give up this trivial pursuit and tackle a problem that really matters in the bigger scheme of things.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by droidly » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:52 pm

susanjoypaul wrote:
I agree with *all* of the above comments. I added a poll to this thread, so please vote. I'll forward the thread on to the BGN - at least then they'll hear the other side of the argument, before they make their decision. Thanks folks!

how many times can we vote? :D
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