Petition to rename Kit Carson

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Do you agree that Kit Carson should be renamed Mount Crestone?

Yes - rename it!
17
6%
No - do not rename it!
264
94%
 
Total votes: 281
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susanjoypaul
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by susanjoypaul »

About two weeks ago, I was interviewed in regard to this matter by Colorado Public Radio. Apparently at least part of the interview aired this morning, and they have a *very* short (three lines!) summary of it on their website. They also interviewed Keno, the weatherman, and Lou Yost, from the Board on Geographic Names. I don't know if they ever plan on posting the entire interview, but I have a transcript of most of it, so I'll post it here for those of you who are interested.

I'm very disappointed that there was no interview with local officials, such as the mayor, county commissioners, and city council, as I am very interested in learning their reasons for promoting the name change. This is such an important decision, and quite controversial; as government officials, I would think they would be eager to publicly voice their opinions behind the decisions they make, those decisions they are paid to make in the best interest of the city and county they represent. I guess we will just never know what drove them. But I will always have my $uspicions.

Here's the CPR website: http://www.cpr.org/#load_article|Cresto ... e_Mountain

I'll post the entire interview shortly.
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theo9805
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by theo9805 »

susanjoypaul wrote:This is such an important decision...
do you really think this is that important of a decision? it's just the name of a freaking mountain. ya the backstory might be interesting, but an interesting story with people's various reasons for wanting to change the "official" name of a mountain doesn't make it important. the name doesn't change the mountain. it's still that really tall one right there in the sangres with the cool "avenue" and the peak will remain at 14,165 ft. people can call it what they want. ya there are already enough crestones, etc., and SAR might have to ask a couple more questions to make sure they have the right peak, but all in all, this isn't really that important. i'm gonna call it KFC mountain from now on. Kit Freaking Carson. I don't care what it says on a map. whoever made the map got it wrong.

and yes, i've read a majority of this thread, and people might throw out it's the principle of the thing, but really, this isn't that important of a decision. and that is how i really feel.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by susanjoypaul »

Here's an introduction, and a transcript of the majority of that Colorado Public Radio interview.

It opened with Megan asking me how I had heard about the petition and what my initial reaction had been; I told her I learned about it at a memorial for a fallen friend and fellow climber, Spencer Swanger. Even though the occasion was intended to celebrate the life of a dear friend, the room was filled with climbers and mountaineers, and so the conversations often turned to one that we all had in common besides being a friend of Spencer's: mountains. I also told her that my initial reaction had been disbelief, as the very idea of renaming a Colorado 14er seemed ridiculous. But as I learned more, I came to realize that this wasn't a joke, and not only was it possible but, with the support of city and county and officials, it might actually be probable.

Then Megan asked me why I think the name should remain as it is - Kit Carson - and here is the conversation that followed:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are a number of reasons I feel that changing the name of Kit Carson Mountain to Crestone Mountain is a bad idea. I mean, there are the obvious reasons:

Thousands of hikers and recreationists have known this peak as “Kit Carson” for over a century now, and changing the name will create a lot of confusion in the climbing community, and among the many search and rescue organizations that are called upon from across the state in times of emergency.

We have other peaks named “Crestone,” including ranked 14ers Crestone Peak and Crestone Needle, along with unranked 14ers “Northeast Crestone” and “East Crestone,” the highpoint of Custer county. Adding another “Crestone” to the mix is going to get really confusing.

Right now, if there’s an accident on “Kit Carson,” a lost or injured hiker, folks from the sheriff’s office or search and rescue know where to go. If we rename that massif “Crestone Mountain,” amongst all the other “Crestones,” how many precious minutes will be lost while they try to pinpoint exactly where they’re supposed to be focusing their rescue efforts?


Also, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of maps, websites, route descriptions, guide books, and trip reports that currently reference that geologic feature as “Kit Carson.” I don’t believe the owners of those documents should be expected to incur the time- and cost-intensive expense of changing their collateral. However, if they don’t, that documentation is going to be out-dated and confusing for anyone who tries to use it.

On 14ers.com alone there are over 200 trip reports that reference Kit Carson, and more out on sites like Lists of John, Summitpost, and Peakbagger.

Gerry Roach is coming out with a new edition of his classic volume, “Colorado’s 14ers,” any day now. He’s been hiking, climbing, and documenting the routes on 14ers for decades – so is his new guide going to be obsolete before the ink is dry? That book is the Colorado 14ers “bible” – and it hardly seems fair, to treat his work that way.


The argument that the peak’s namesake, “Kit Carson,” is a war criminal and unworthy of tribute is debatable. I’m not going to try to trivialize his war crimes against the Navajo, but honestly, is it really fair to judge our nation’s military of 100 years ago, by today’s moral standards?

War is ugly, no matter how you go about it. Who’s to say that, in a hundred years, today’s heroes aren’t going to be judged more harshly? You can’t change the past by changing the names, covering up the facts. But you can learn from it – honor the good, and learn from the bad, so you don’t repeat it. That excuse for changing the name of the peak is really just political correctness gone awry, in my opinion.


There’s perhaps the less obvious reason that I wouldn’t want to see the name of the peak changed, as well. Hiking and climbing to the top of a 14er is hard. Even the easy ones are hard – and Kit Carson isn’t an easy one. I mean, you’re making your way to the top of a 14,165’ mountain!

If you take the standard route, and go over Challenger Point on the way up, like most people do, this is a 14 mile hike, and the elevation gain equivalent of climbing a 600-story building. Only it’s not on a nice track, or stairs, the best of it is a dirt trail, but the other half is boulders, and talus, and loose rocks, and very steep, slippery slopes. There’s some pretty scary exposure up there too. It’s not easy. People die up there.

Summiting Kit Carson – and getting back down safely – is quite an accomplishment, and it’s physically and mentally draining. Those of us who have done it are pretty proud of that, and having done it, or at least for me - we have an emotional attachment to that day, and that experience. Words still mean something to some people, names mean something to me, and it does bother me that my memories of that day, which are attached to the name “Kit Carson,” and which will always be associated with the mountain I know as “Kit Carson” – well, it seems wrong that my memories, the memories of many, many people who have summitted that peak, are being overlooked, basically ignored, if the name is changed to something that really has no connection at all for us to that peak, or that experience, that day.


Along the same lines, naming the summit itself “Tranquility Point,” which is also in the proposal, is an even worse idea! The reasons for this are really pretty straight-forward.

There are over 5,000 peaks in the state of Colorado, and I can’t think of a single one that has a separate name for its summit, than for the peak itself. I can tell you with 100% certainty that there isn’t a single ranked 14er in Colorado that has a unique and discrete name for its actual highpoint, or summit.

And there are many 14ers with sub-summits: here in the Front Range alone, we have Mount Evans and West Evans, Longs Peak has unranked 14er “Southeast Longs” and Centennial Mount Meeker. Pikes Peak has a number of ranked and unranked sub-summits. In the Sawatch, Mount Massive has its main summit, Mount Massive, plus North Massive, South Massive, Massive Green, and two other 14,000 points, one of which is also the highpoint of the Hunter-Fryingpan Wilderness. But the mountain – and its summit – is still just Mount Massive. That’s the case for *all* of the Colorado 14ers.

The only 14er I know of that’s summit is named differently than the mountain is Mount Rainier, in Washington State. Its summit is also sometimes called Columbia Crest, but no one ever says “I did Columbia Crest.” They say I did Mount Rainier. And Rainier has two sub-summits – Point Success, which doesn’t have enough prominence to be ranked, but Liberty Cap does. So when someone says they climbed Mount Rainier, or summitted Mount Rainier, it’s assumed they reached the highest point, also known as Columbia Crest. But that’s a Washington State thing... we don’t do that here in Colorado.

The bottom line is, there are no other Colorado 14ers with summits named something other than the mountain’s name – and if this Keno fellow, the newspaper reporter who moved to Crestone a few years ago and wrote the proposal for changing the name of the peak doesn’t even know this, what is he doing naming a 14er? He’s obviously not very well-versed in mountain-naming convention. And it’s not as if this stuff is a big secret... if he had just done his homework, spent a few minutes on 14ers.com or Lists of John, or even just skimmed Roach’s guide to the Colorado 14ers, he *would* know it. Honestly, it’s a bit offensive to me, and probably other mountaineers as well, that someone so ignorant of mountain protocol can just come along and expect to break with that tradition.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The conversation ended with Megan asking me how I felt about renaming mountains in general, and I told her I am all for renaming mountains when it makes sense - and as long as they're not Colorado 14ers. There are plenty of unnamed peaks in the state to be named, if someone was so inclined. In fact, I expect to be writing my own petition at some point, in an effort to rename a peak after Spencer. But it won't be a named peak, and it won't be a 14er. She also asked me about my climbing resume, but I won't bore you with those details, as they're not pertinent to the story.

I think that's it. The Board votes next month. I'm going to send them this post and I sure hope they read it!
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by elkheart22 »

Well done SJP.... =D>

Thanks for taking up the Fight...
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by MUni Rider »

susanjoypaul wrote:Here's an introduction, and a transcript of the majority of that Colorado Public Radio interview......
That's great Susan! -----Still waiting to see this whole thing on Colbert Report. :cartman: :lol:
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." (Theodore Roosevelt)

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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by susanjoypaul »

theo9805 wrote:and yes, i've read a majority of this thread, and people might throw out it's the principle of the thing, but really, this isn't that important of a decision. and that is how i really feel.
I guess it's only important... if you have principles.
Landlich wrote: =D>
elkheart22 wrote:Well done SJP.... =D>

Thanks for taking up the Fight...
Thanks, guys. And thanks to everyone who's quietly supported me through PMs, emails, Facebook comments and even a couple of text messages this morning.
MUni Rider wrote:That's great Susan! -----Still waiting to see this whole thing on Colbert Report. :cartman: :lol:
Ha! I'm still waiting for the media to cover the actual story, instead of just giving that mouthpiece weatherman Keno a public platform for his ridiculous, unwarranted, and highly suspect proposal.

We still haven't heard a logical explanation for why the proposal contains a recommendation for naming the summit "Tranquility Point." That particular point cannot be defended with a single reason - historical, political, or otherwise - provided in the petition, or the proposal. Doesn't anyone else question the reasoning behind this recommendation?

Of *all* the media out there, I really expected a fair shake from CPR, rather than the blatantly biased report they posted, the majority of which panders to the views of one man who pretends to represent the people of Crestone, while failing to question his motives or, even more importantly, the motives of the government officials seeking to push this through.

What a farce. Maybe Colbert should cover it. Even pseudo-news is more representative of the truth than what passes for media coverage in Colorado these days.

But hey - we're at 244 votes with 94% against the name change... that's some good news.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by theo9805 »

susanjoypaul wrote: I guess it's only important... if you have principles.
lol. i doubt i'll ever let someone get me worked up enough as much as you are about the NAME of a mountain. a principle i live by :) now if they wanted to build a road to the top, forbid people from going to the top, etc., that'd be a different story. but it's about a NAME. it's like those religions getting mad that gays would use the WORD marriage to describe them getting married. it's a WORD. give me a break.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by MountainHiker »

Thanks Susan =D>
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by Johnson »

theo9805 wrote:
susanjoypaul wrote: I guess it's only important... if you have principles.
lol. i doubt i'll ever let someone get me worked up enough as much as you are about the NAME of a mountain. a principle i live by :) now if they wanted to build a road to the top, forbid people from going to the top, etc., that'd be a different story. but it's about a NAME. it's like those religions getting mad that gays would use the WORD marriage to describe them getting married. it's a WORD. give me a break.
I would hope that by the time you get out of law school you will come to the point of recognizing that if words are flushed of their meaning then nothing has meaning. If laws are not written in words with meaning then there is no law.....
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by theo9805 »

words written in law are much different than the name of a mound of dirt and rock...
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by Johnson »

theo9805 wrote:words written in law are much different than the name of a mound of dirt and rock...

Perhaps but if "marriage" can mean anything so can murder or rape or incest or theft.
In his hand are the depths of the earth; the heights of the mountains are his also. - Psalm 95:4

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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by theo9805 »

that's why we have courts in the law world. the meaning of the words rape, incest, theft, etc. are debated everyday. so yes, those also have many meanings to different people. they are still just words. i realize i brought that into this thread, but i'll take it upon myself to say if we wanna debate that then we should take it out of this thread as to not derail it.
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