Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

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RichH
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Re: Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

Post by RichH » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:57 am

ker0uac wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:33 pm
its_not_a_tuba wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:47 am
I am going to blow up the whole thread by declaring, on paper at least, that the 2021 Bronco is going to blow all these away. It's off-the-lot available options and capabilities are jaw dropping.
The only thing wrong with the Bronco is that it's made by Ford. Aside from that, it's the best stock offroad rig I have ever seen.
I don't know much about the new Bronco and don't own a Ford (I own a Toyota) but I'm not sure Ford deserves to be bashed - they make and sell an awful lot of good trucks.
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Re: Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

Post by ker0uac » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:35 am

RichH wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:57 am

I don't know much about the new Bronco and don't own a Ford (I own a Toyota) but I'm not sure Ford deserves to be bashed - they make and sell an awful lot of good trucks.
Which Toyota model do you own?

Ford is certainly an American icon, has a legion of loyal followers among the more 'patriotic' folks - thus why Ford vs Ferrari - and its overall quality has certainly improved since it nearly went belly up 8years ago. But really, all they have done is catch up with Asian brands.

I see buying a Bronco similar to shopping at Amazon. When I search for vaccum cleaners, the results show Tyson, the simplest model for $$$$, as well as a bunch of no-name brand for $$. The no-name brands come with so many awesome features that make the vaccum seem like a spaceship, yet I know that once I open the box, the thing will fall apart after first use.
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Re: Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

Post by Dave B » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:08 am

ker0uac wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:35 am
RichH wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:57 am

I don't know much about the new Bronco and don't own a Ford (I own a Toyota) but I'm not sure Ford deserves to be bashed - they make and sell an awful lot of good trucks.
Which Toyota model do you own?

Ford is certainly an American icon, has a legion of loyal followers among the more 'patriotic' folks - thus why Ford vs Ferrari - and its overall quality has certainly improved since it nearly went belly up 8years ago. But really, all they have done is catch up with Asian brands.
Toyota has been resting on it's laurels with the Taco and 4runner for years. Nissan hasn't updated the Frontier in how long? Sure the Honda Ridgeline seems to make people happy, but who the f**k actually wants a Honda truck?

I really wanted another Tacoma, really bad, then I test drove one of the third gens. The under-powered V6, awful gear-hunting transmission, terrible gas mileage, boxy feel and uncomfortable cab made for someone 5'7 just ruins that truck. It's an image truck that seems to have developed a Stockholm Syndrome type following, I just don't get it...
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Re: Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

Post by Reg0928 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:10 am

Shaller13 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:34 pm
3rd owner of a stock 2000 Jeep Cherokee nearing 300K. It does extremely well on trails and I can sleep in the back fine.

If you're someone who isn't mechanically inclined, wants a newer vehicle, not going to beat up your vehicle off-roading a lot/dealing with a lot of rocks and/or does a lot of long distance traveling then perhaps a Toyota or Subaru will do you best.

If not then a older Jeep like mine is perfect. I can't speak for the newer Jeeps but old Jeeps with the 4.0 engine are amazing. These Jeeps can last a long time if taken care of and do your regular maintenance when you are suppose to.

Old Jeeps can do anything whether or not fan boys of other brands say otherwise. Keep in mind yes each vehicle has their issues but for someone to say Jeeps are s**t when my old Jeep is still going strong with the original engine, is either lying to themselves or they did not take car of their Jeep(s).
I had a 2000 XJ before I got my 2nd gen Tacoma. I miss that thing. It was a blast to drive and super capable, but I wanted a truck bed
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Re: Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

Post by Conor » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:55 am

Dave B wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:08 am
ker0uac wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:35 am
RichH wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:57 am

I don't know much about the new Bronco and don't own a Ford (I own a Toyota) but I'm not sure Ford deserves to be bashed - they make and sell an awful lot of good trucks.
Which Toyota model do you own?

Ford is certainly an American icon, has a legion of loyal followers among the more 'patriotic' folks - thus why Ford vs Ferrari - and its overall quality has certainly improved since it nearly went belly up 8years ago. But really, all they have done is catch up with Asian brands.
Toyota has been resting on it's laurels with the Taco and 4runner for years. Nissan hasn't updated the Frontier in how long? Sure the Honda Ridgeline seems to make people happy, but who the f**k actually wants a Honda truck?

I really wanted another Tacoma, really bad, then I test drove one of the third gens. The under-powered V6, awful gear-hunting transmission, terrible gas mileage, boxy feel and uncomfortable cab made for someone 5'7 just ruins that truck. It's an image truck that seems to have developed a Stockholm Syndrome type following, I just don't get it...
I've never been a taco fan and I never will most likely never own one unless I buy an old minitruck and practically gut the thing, swap axles, dual tcases, trump flag mount etc. Even then, it would be more for a garage project than an actual wheeling adventure.

I've heard similar complaints about the new tacos as you list here. Toyota's schtick through the 90's was beefy but underpowered engine, way overbuilt tranny and driveline. They have shifted more to a "just right" model taking out a lot of the overbuilt components but left the underpowered engine. Which is leading many to the complaints you have here.

The other problem with toyota is they have never made an engine to hang their laurels on. Chevy did it, ford is doing. But, I can buy a brand new crate "LS" motor for about the same as I can buy the parts to rebuild my toyota motor, and that's sourcing through amayama. Maybe the GM motor would end up being $1000 or so more, but it also makes double the horsepower.

This is the long way of saying, I love my toyota land cruisers, but I would never buy a modern toyota truck/suv. Maybe a 200 series landcruiser, but I don't have that kind of cash....that's more of a cult thing than anything else. You pretty much resign yourself to the right lane going up passes in most toyota trucks/suvs, but a new one no longer has as much a "bulletproofness" as they used to.
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Re: Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

Post by its_not_a_tuba » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:39 am

Conor wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:55 am
Dave B wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:08 am
ker0uac wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:35 am


Which Toyota model do you own?

Ford is certainly an American icon, has a legion of loyal followers among the more 'patriotic' folks - thus why Ford vs Ferrari - and its overall quality has certainly improved since it nearly went belly up 8years ago. But really, all they have done is catch up with Asian brands.
Toyota has been resting on it's laurels with the Taco and 4runner for years. Nissan hasn't updated the Frontier in how long? Sure the Honda Ridgeline seems to make people happy, but who the f**k actually wants a Honda truck?

I really wanted another Tacoma, really bad, then I test drove one of the third gens. The under-powered V6, awful gear-hunting transmission, terrible gas mileage, boxy feel and uncomfortable cab made for someone 5'7 just ruins that truck. It's an image truck that seems to have developed a Stockholm Syndrome type following, I just don't get it...
I've never been a taco fan and I never will most likely never own one unless I buy an old minitruck and practically gut the thing, swap axles, dual tcases, trump flag mount etc. Even then, it would be more for a garage project than an actual wheeling adventure.

I've heard similar complaints about the new tacos as you list here. Toyota's schtick through the 90's was beefy but underpowered engine, way overbuilt tranny and driveline. They have shifted more to a "just right" model taking out a lot of the overbuilt components but left the underpowered engine. Which is leading many to the complaints you have here.

The other problem with toyota is they have never made an engine to hang their laurels on. Chevy did it, ford is doing. But, I can buy a brand new crate "LS" motor for about the same as I can buy the parts to rebuild my toyota motor, and that's sourcing through amayama. Maybe the GM motor would end up being $1000 or so more, but it also makes double the horsepower.

This is the long way of saying, I love my toyota land cruisers, but I would never buy a modern toyota truck/suv. Maybe a 200 series landcruiser, but I don't have that kind of cash....that's more of a cult thing than anything else. You pretty much resign yourself to the right lane going up passes in most toyota trucks/suvs, but a new one no longer has as much a "bulletproofness" as they used to.

I am in a 2017 4Runner and I have no problems staying in the left lane on passes, well except for the problems I have with the people in front of me! I agree though that the truck does not have enough torque and feels sluggish off the line.
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Re: Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

Post by Dave B » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:51 am

Conor wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:55 am

I've heard similar complaints about the new tacos as you list here. Toyota's schtick through the 90's was beefy but underpowered engine, way overbuilt tranny and driveline. They have shifted more to a "just right" model taking out a lot of the overbuilt components but left the underpowered engine. Which is leading many to the complaints you have here.

The other problem with toyota is they have never made an engine to hang their laurels on. Chevy did it, ford is doing. But, I can buy a brand new crate "LS" motor for about the same as I can buy the parts to rebuild my toyota motor, and that's sourcing through amayama. Maybe the GM motor would end up being $1000 or so more, but it also makes double the horsepower.
*Supposedly* a regear of the gen 3 to 4.88 makes a huge difference with performance, especially if you've got 33s. But, you're looking at $2.5-3K for a regear. OV tunes have similar performance review, but having to flash back to factory every time the truck goes in the shop so as not to void the warranty is just plain silly. The odd thing is that both a regrear and tune are supposed to improve MPGs by stopping the Taco rev (either runing 2k RPM in 6th, or 6k RPM in 2nd). Long story short, it seems the engine has potential, Toyota has just castrated it for some reason so it's factory specs are more favorable... somehow.

I've got a 5.0 V8 F150 on the way to me now, that's a nice powerful engine, great payload, good towing, rear lockers and similar MPGs to a V6 Tacoma. Definitely not the "cool" factor of Tacomas, but I want a truck I like driving, not just looking at. A leveling kit or coil-over upgrade, method wheels, and some 34s and the F150 looses a good bit of it's dad truck vibe... or so I hope.

its_not_a_tuba wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:39 am

I am in a 2017 4Runner and I have no problems staying in the left lane on passes, well except for the problems I have with the people in front of me! I agree though that the truck does not have enough torque and feels sluggish off the line.
My wife has a 2011 Trail Edition 4runner. I love that truck. It's definitely has way more gas to it than the gen 3 Tacos. It does what you want it to, when you want it, but on road the body roll and nose diving (even with Billy 5100s) drives me nuts. We put Duratracs on it last go around and their flimsy side wall just made the problem worse. Super fun truck off road tho...
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Re: Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

Post by its_not_a_tuba » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:43 am

Dave B wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:08 am
ker0uac wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:35 am
RichH wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:57 am

I don't know much about the new Bronco and don't own a Ford (I own a Toyota) but I'm not sure Ford deserves to be bashed - they make and sell an awful lot of good trucks.
Which Toyota model do you own?

Ford is certainly an American icon, has a legion of loyal followers among the more 'patriotic' folks - thus why Ford vs Ferrari - and its overall quality has certainly improved since it nearly went belly up 8years ago. But really, all they have done is catch up with Asian brands.
Toyota has been resting on it's laurels with the Taco and 4runner for years. Nissan hasn't updated the Frontier in how long? Sure the Honda Ridgeline seems to make people happy, but who the f**k actually wants a Honda truck?

I really wanted another Tacoma, really bad, then I test drove one of the third gens. The under-powered V6, awful gear-hunting transmission, terrible gas mileage, boxy feel and uncomfortable cab made for someone 5'7 just ruins that truck. It's an image truck that seems to have developed a Stockholm Syndrome type following, I just don't get it...
This right here! With the exception of the Land Cruiser Toyota has traded innovation for reliability on their off highway capable vehicles, and at $85K base price the LC isn't exactly an OHV, highly capable but a long way away from practical. Yes the 4R and Taco can go for 100s of thousands of miles but they are stone age relics off the lot.
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Re: Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

Post by Conor » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:48 am

Dave B wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:51 am
Conor wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:55 am

I've heard similar complaints about the new tacos as you list here. Toyota's schtick through the 90's was beefy but underpowered engine, way overbuilt tranny and driveline. They have shifted more to a "just right" model taking out a lot of the overbuilt components but left the underpowered engine. Which is leading many to the complaints you have here.

The other problem with toyota is they have never made an engine to hang their laurels on. Chevy did it, ford is doing. But, I can buy a brand new crate "LS" motor for about the same as I can buy the parts to rebuild my toyota motor, and that's sourcing through amayama. Maybe the GM motor would end up being $1000 or so more, but it also makes double the horsepower.
*Supposedly* a regear of the gen 3 to 4.88 makes a huge difference with performance, especially if you've got 33s. But, you're looking at $2.5-3K for a regear. OV tunes have similar performance review, but having to flash back to factory every time the truck goes in the shop so as not to void the warranty is just plain silly. The odd thing is that both a regrear and tune are supposed to improve MPGs by stopping the Taco rev (either runing 2k RPM in 6th, or 6k RPM in 2nd). Long story short, it seems the engine has potential, Toyota has just castrated it for some reason so it's factory specs are more favorable... somehow.

I've got a 5.0 V8 F150 on the way to me now, that's a nice powerful engine, great payload, good towing, rear lockers and similar MPGs to a V6 Tacoma. Definitely not the "cool" factor of Tacomas, but I want a truck I like driving, not just looking at. A leveling kit or coil-over upgrade, method wheels, and some 34s and the F150 looses a good bit of it's dad truck vibe... or so I hope.

its_not_a_tuba wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:39 am

I am in a 2017 4Runner and I have no problems staying in the left lane on passes, well except for the problems I have with the people in front of me! I agree though that the truck does not have enough torque and feels sluggish off the line.
My wife has a 2011 Trail Edition 4runner. I love that truck. It's definitely has way more gas to it than the gen 3 Tacos. It does what you want it to, when you want it, but on road the body roll and nose diving (even with Billy 5100s) drives me nuts. We put Duratracs on it last go around and their flimsy side wall just made the problem worse. Super fun truck off road tho...
regear will also affect your cruising rpms. tuning is possible. I'm against hiding tunes, but I'm also against manufacturers voiding the warranties for unrelated issues (e.g. a starter) if you do tune.

You can waive to me in the right lane hitting 4500 rpms trying to hold 60 mph then (until my turbo gets here...)
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Re: Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

Post by stephakett » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:53 am

Conor wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:55 am

I've heard similar complaints about the new tacos as you list here. Toyota's schtick through the 90's was beefy but underpowered engine, way overbuilt tranny and driveline. They have shifted more to a "just right" model taking out a lot of the overbuilt components but left the underpowered engine. Which is leading many to the complaints you have here.

The other problem with toyota is they have never made an engine to hang their laurels on. Chevy did it, ford is doing. But, I can buy a brand new crate "LS" motor for about the same as I can buy the parts to rebuild my toyota motor, and that's sourcing through amayama. Maybe the GM motor would end up being $1000 or so more, but it also makes double the horsepower.
i see what you're saying, chevy has kept pretty much the same engine for decades (with a few flops here and there) but the engines in the toyota truck, and the gen 1, gen 2 tacomas are million mile motors. even though they've changed and evolved more than chevy motors for the last 50 years, they're incredibly reliable and will take A LOT of abuse... ford cannot compete with these, and i think they're going to have to change it up again from the twin turbo eco boost shenanigans they're pushing out right now-- it could maybe work for the bronco because they're not primarily designed for towing, but there are some overheating/spooling issues on inclines, under load that i don't want to deal with.

its_not_a_tuba wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:39 am

I am in a 2017 4Runner and I have no problems staying in the left lane on passes, well except for the problems I have with the people in front of me! I agree though that the truck does not have enough torque and feels sluggish off the line.
the 5th gen has more torque than the newest wranglers... and "sluggish off the line"??? YEAH. it's a utility vehicle, not a freakin' race car :lol:

Dave B wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:51 am
My wife has a 2011 Trail Edition 4runner. I love that truck. It's definitely has way more gas to it than the gen 3 Tacos. It does what you want it to, when you want it, but on road the body roll and nose diving (even with Billy 5100s) drives me nuts. We put Duratracs on it last go around and their flimsy side wall just made the problem worse. Super fun truck off road tho...
i've seen a set of duratracs last 100K mi. they have superior traction on trails, as well as snow, and ice and the sidewall is not flimsy, in my experience. best tires i've ever had, worth every penny.
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Re: Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

Post by RichH » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:58 am

ker0uac wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:35 am
RichH wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:57 am

I don't know much about the new Bronco and don't own a Ford (I own a Toyota) but I'm not sure Ford deserves to be bashed - they make and sell an awful lot of good trucks.
Which Toyota model do you own?

Ford is certainly an American icon, has a legion of loyal followers among the more 'patriotic' folks - thus why Ford vs Ferrari - and its overall quality has certainly improved since it nearly went belly up 8years ago. But really, all they have done is catch up with Asian brands.

I see buying a Bronco similar to shopping at Amazon. When I search for vaccum cleaners, the results show Tyson, the simplest model for $$$$, as well as a bunch of no-name brand for $$. The no-name brands come with so many awesome features that make the vaccum seem like a spaceship, yet I know that once I open the box, the thing will fall apart after first use.
Landcruiser.
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Re: Best vehicle for 4wd trailheads

Post by ker0uac » Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:12 am

I think there are two ways of looking at the vehicle: which one has the best specs (e.g., more torque or HP, crawl ratio etc), and which one has higher quality components and engineering and more dependability? In other words, which one can I drive 200k miles without any unscheduled maintenance?

The F150 can tow twice as much as Tacoma - does that make F150 a better truck?

I am definitely not the type who can rebuild engines or gut the whole car and make mechanical modifications, so maybe that's why quality and dependability are more important for me.
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