Climbing Decisions and Risk Assessment

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Monster5
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Re: Climbing Decisions and Risk Assessment

Post by Monster5 »

Colorado tends to produce bold scramblers and excellent rock climbers, but surprisingly few of the semi technical mountaineering cross breeds - those who can manage a rope on extended 5.0 - 5.6 alpine terrain efficiently with constant movement. This is remarkably apparent when Coloradans (especially 14erites) travel to other mountaineering centers.
The scramblers claim ropes and gear are slow and dangerous, not understanding this is due to their inexperience, ignorance, and lack of practice. They also claim this stuff is heavy and bulky, when my alpine pack is generally smaller and lighter than many 14er hiker's day packs.
The climbers don't really want to deal with miles of talus or rambly crap to get to the goods, and thus never really deal with simuls, terrain/body belays, and other rope management techniques outside of pitched belays.
This is somewhat a byproduct of our alpine terrain simply lacking those training opportunities, and instead providing loads of peaks accessible to anyone with a semblance of athleticism.
I'm not saying we don't have those opportunities, but it's common to see people either soloing or pitching out Spearhead N Ridge and Longs' North Chimney, but few simuling.
The Flatirons are a great place to practice however.
"The road to alpine climbing is pocked and poorly marked, ending at an unexpectedly closed gate 5 miles from the trailhead." - MP user Beckerich
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daway8
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Re: Climbing Decisions and Risk Assessment

Post by daway8 »

Monster5 wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:17 pm The scramblers claim ropes and gear are slow and dangerous, not understanding this is due to their inexperience, ignorance, and lack of practice. They also claim this stuff is heavy and bulky, when my alpine pack is generally smaller and lighter than many 14er hiker's day packs.
Intrigued by this last statement... I'm curious what a typical rope length/diameter is that you carry for alpine climbs - obviously depends on the route but could you share a couple representative examples? (I freely admit I'm a scrambler only just barely getting into actual climbing intermittently over the last couple years so I'm very much in the inexperience/ignorance category still but trying to absorb more knowledge...)
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Re: Climbing Decisions and Risk Assessment

Post by Monster5 »

For a long 4th -5.6 ramble, I might consider a 30m x 8mm rope, single rack 0.3-2, a couple microtraxions (or the lighter edelrid version) and a half dozen alpine draws. The follower would generally manage slack and pace with a gri or pilot type auto/semi auto braking device. If rappels are needed, I might take a 60 m and store the additional length in a pack.

Depending on terrain, this setup is enough for 300+++ feet of rambling before a change over might be needed. With a practised partner, this can be significantly faster than soloing on unknown low grade terrain, never mind the obvious safety component. As a buddy says, "I climb fastest when I feel safe."

I recall soloing the Grand Teton's Upper Exum with a buddy perhaps a decade ago. We were slow and wigged out, though we were convinced we were speed demons sans rope. Up until a couple women from Washington blitzed by us on rope in a matter of minutes and having a wonderful time.

--
Why 8mm, or non-single rated half rope? Because factor 2 falls are highly improbable on rambly terrain. The rope can always be halved if a short harder crux is encountered.
--
The microtraxions allow for pushing the grade even more, almost to one's YDS limit depending on the terrain, but that's another subject.
--
What am I leaving OUT of my pack to keep it lighter than a 14erite? Eh. Probably best not to say on a forum. But I will say those padded feature-rich Ospreys make me jealous sometimes.
--
Additional pro/rack is often worth the weight for extending simul blocks
--
EDIT: I should probably add 4th class to the range above. It truly is applicable to some of Colorado's harder alpine rambling.
"The road to alpine climbing is pocked and poorly marked, ending at an unexpectedly closed gate 5 miles from the trailhead." - MP user Beckerich
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daway8
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Re: Climbing Decisions and Risk Assessment

Post by daway8 »

Monster5 wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:32 pm What am I leaving OUT of my pack to keep it lighter than a 14erite? Eh. Probably best not to say on a forum. But I will say those padded feature-rich Ospreys make me jealous sometimes.
Bwahaha, that could make an entertaining thread of it's own! (I tend to carry everything but the kitchen sink - I tell myself it's for conditioning for when I go camping - which I hardly ever do...)
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Re: Climbing Decisions and Risk Assessment

Post by TomPierce »

Ropes in the 30m/8mm range are commonly available, REI used to sell an Edelrid (maybe Edelweiss?) rope like that. Commonly used as a glacier rope as well. Note that 7/8mm is a good size, if you go much smaller the rope will feed super fast through most belay devices. There are ways to control the friction, just be aware of the issue.

If you're going to climb up with such a rope, consider learning to use a pair of them as twin ropes. You can lead anything safely on twins, it is exactly the same process as a single rope, allows you to split the weight load by having each partner carry a rope, and if you need to rappel you just tie a single knot and voila! You now have a 60m rappel line.

For those interested in learning technical and/or rappel skills, IMO it's like many things in life, there's both art & science. If you take a formal class you're likely to learn the "science," understandable from a liability standpoint. But it you also climb with someone who knows their stuff, you're more likely to learn the "art," the tricks in the toolbox and ways to cut corners safely. Just my opinions.

-Tom
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Re: Climbing Decisions and Risk Assessment

Post by Jorts »

d_baker wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:21 pm Well see, those two posts by you has me confused, which is easy to do anyway.
On one hand, you suggest hikers should carry a rope or at least learn the skills needed to have that option. But when do they know when to carry one? If they follow your second post, it appears as if a rope may not be needed if one has already done the route.
Why should that matter? Can an accident only happen if it's a new route to the hiker/climber? I don't think so.
As for the crux areas, one move or one area, same thing to me, I doubt most accidents happen at the same spot every time, so that is pointless (to me) to suggest whipping out a rope at cruxes, you know, because this is the spot everyone always falls from on this scrambling route.
If you're not carrying a rope on every mountain route you do, then maybe you think it's not possible that you could have an accident?
I do not think hikers should always carry a rope. I certainly don’t carry a rope up Quandary’s east ridge.

If I’ve done a route many times I’ll know if I actually want/need a rope. My first time on the Crestone traverse I brought a rope because some of our party thought they might want it on the headwall. We decided not to use it. Another time I took friends up Wichita. One of them roped up for the one section and I just belayed her off a horn.

When I said crux, I wasn’t referring to the one 5th cl move on an otherwise 4th cl face. I meant the whole section. Like what you encounter on the Needle headwall. Often in parties, the strongest climber can go first and belay everyone else from the top. Or you can simulclimb. Or setup a traditional lead. Or you can rappel a wet section in the rain. It just gives options.

I don’t think a rope would be a panacea to stop mountain accidents due to falls. But I think there are times when it brings some peace of mind and some added safety. Simple as that.
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daway8
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Re: Climbing Decisions and Risk Assessment

Post by daway8 »

TomPierce wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:45 pm For those interested in learning technical and/or rappel skills, IMO it's like many things in life, there's both art & science. If you take a formal class you're likely to learn the "science," understandable from a liability standpoint. But it you also climb with someone who knows their stuff, you're more likely to learn the "art," the tricks in the toolbox and ways to cut corners safely. Just my opinions.

-Tom
Yes, I picked up some of the "science" in classes at the gym (supplemented by some online resources) but SnowAlien gave me an intro to some of the "art." Still have plenty of "science" and "art" to learn but now at least I have a foundation to work from.

It's good seeing specific details on a thread like this because it gives me some ideas for next steps to continue the learning process...
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Re: Climbing Decisions and Risk Assessment

Post by timisimaginary »

oldschool wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:40 pm Every time we get in vehicle we have a high probability of injury or death. Most of us (I believe) don't see it that way or feel that way about it. I ride motorcycles a lot. Every time I get on my bikes I'm very aware of the probability of injury or death. It does not stop me from going or riding. Risk vs Reward if you will. My risk, my reward.
as someone who has driven literally hundreds of thousands of miles, on thousands of separate car trips, without injury or death, i wouldn't exactly say getting in a vehicle entails "high probability" of injury/death. possibility, yes. probability, no. it's still true that, on the vast majority of my hiking trips, the drive to the trailhead was the most dangerous part of the trip... but that just underscores how safe most hiking routes are, not how incredibly dangerous driving can be.

the risk vs. reward equation is important in all walks of life, but you have to have a realistic assessment of the risk to make that calculation. human beings are notoriously bad at risk assessment. right now, thousands of americans are suffering and dying needlessly due to a poor risk/reward assessment of vaccination vs. COVID infection.

in terms of potentially risky outdoor activities (rock climbing, mountaineering, backcountry skiing, etc.) there seems to be a reverse bell curve at work: beginners tend to overestimate risk and be more conservative at first, then after gaining some experience and becoming more confident their risk estimation becomes more accurate, but then some people continue pushing into riskier behaviors and suffering from confirmation bias that causes them to begin underestimating the increased risk they're taking on. that usually ends with a bad experience which, if they're lucky to survive it, will shock their risk assessment back to a more accurate level. that seems to be the most common pattern. unfortunately, it's really hard to tell when your risk assessment begins to lose touch with reality until it's too late.
"The decay and disintegration of this culture is astonishingly amusing if you're emotionally detached from it." - George Carlin
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Re: Climbing Decisions and Risk Assessment

Post by Alpinefroggy »

bdloftin77 wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:21 am
jibler wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:20 pm in terms of risk management --

I've heard about so many deaths on capital I've scratched it off my list - and that was several years ago now.


just seems too sketchy - too many headlines


i was shocked to hear about the Sneffels fatality this year because I thought that was a relatively safe san juan one.

but my biggest risk factor is actually likely lightning as I am a perennial late starter and always skirting the edge on that stuff
I wonder if there are actually even more deaths on Longs than on Capitol. Yet many wouldn’t even bat an eye about climbing Longs Peak.

But yes, certain mountains have much higher incident rates than others, so that’s something to consider.
Longs peak has a higher quantity of climbers than Capitol and also more deaths than Capitol in the aggregate.

I would wager Capitol has a higher overall death rate per summit attempt than Longs.

Still relatively low. The difference between Capitol and Longs in the media sense is that Capitol accidents get amplified in the news because of 14er culture, it having the knife edge and being the hardest 14er in the Colorado zeitgeist might do that. Capitol also now has two notable media stories. I.E. 5 people dying in 6 weeks in 2017 and then the situation with the body recovery party.
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