Elbert S&R last night

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CaptCO
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Re: Elbert S&R last night

Post by CaptCO » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:20 pm

SkaredShtles wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:12 pm
CaptCO wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:03 pm
Nope, you cannot use topo maps without pre-downloading them.
I looked back and you didn't have this caveat stated anywhere... :roll:
Your life sucks old man. Im done replying to your nonsense :) lonely old boy..
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Re: Elbert S&R last night

Post by SkaredShtles » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:34 pm

CaptCO wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:20 pm
SkaredShtles wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:12 pm
CaptCO wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:03 pm
Nope, you cannot use topo maps without pre-downloading them.
I looked back and you didn't have this caveat stated anywhere... :roll:
Your life sucks old man. Im done replying to your nonsense :) lonely old boy..
Ahhhh... nice try, Junior. :mrgreen:
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Re: Elbert S&R last night

Post by Herbert » Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:18 pm

This is a wonderful outcome considering the circumstances. I am sincerely happy for the rescued hikers, and I am in awe of SAR as I always am in these situations. However, I would not be opposed to presenting the hikers with a bill for the rescue. I think a bill like that would help to deter conduct which could be deemed reckless or grossly negligent, and might save lives in the long run. Starting a 14er at noon in sneakers and blue jeans with a snow storm blowing in, and apparently without a map, seems to be pushing the envelope.
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Re: Elbert S&R last night

Post by douglas » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:10 pm

Herbert wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:18 pm
This is a wonderful outcome considering the circumstances. I am sincerely happy for the rescued hikers, and I am in awe of SAR as I always am in these situations. However, I would not be opposed to presenting the hikers with a bill for the rescue. I think a bill like that would help to deter conduct which could be deemed reckless or grossly negligent, and might save lives in the long run. Starting a 14er at noon in sneakers and blue jeans with a snow storm blowing in, and apparently without a map, seems to be pushing the envelope.
As much as you’d like to see them pay, it sets a bad precedent. Maybe if they knew they had a big bill coming they might not have called and tried to get out on their own, ending in disaster. From what I have heard SAR is typically pretty adamant about not sending a bill for that very reason.
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Re: Elbert S&R last night

Post by Herbert » Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:07 am

douglas wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:10 pm

As much as you’d like to see them pay, it sets a bad precedent. Maybe if they knew they had a big bill coming they might not have called and tried to get out on their own, ending in disaster. From what I have heard SAR is typically pretty adamant about not sending a bill for that very reason.
That's a valid point. There are pros and cons. Here is an article that does a pretty good job of framing the debate.
http://content.time.com/time/nation/art ... 21,00.html
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Re: Elbert S&R last night

Post by Trotter » Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:53 am

Herbert wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:07 am
douglas wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:10 pm

As much as you’d like to see them pay, it sets a bad precedent. Maybe if they knew they had a big bill coming they might not have called and tried to get out on their own, ending in disaster. From what I have heard SAR is typically pretty adamant about not sending a bill for that very reason.
That's a valid point. There are pros and cons. Here is an article that does a pretty good job of framing the debate.
http://content.time.com/time/nation/art ... 21,00.html
It really is a tough call on if people should be charged or not. For a long time I thought if someone required rescue that was uninjured, they should pay. It would reimburse rescuers from the cases like the people who climbed little bear and then decided they were too scared to go down, or people who made terrible decisions to go hiking at noon in November in jeans without checking weather, or the guy who did chicago basin and brought no food. But on the flip side, would these people (who already proved their poor judgement) get themselves into real trouble, and now require the same rescue but with broken bones, hypothermia, etc. Making things harder and more expensive for the rescuers. Plus, once the word got out that all you needed was an injury to get out of paying $20,000... I bet suddenly they'd have back pain, or sprained ankles, etc.

From personal experience, I once helped an injured party on Snowmass. Took a fall, possibly broken ribs and foot. Someone had a SPOT and offered to send in rescue for him. His first question was, does it cost money? When we told him it might, if a private chopper showed up, he declined rescue and said his friends would get him out on foot.

I seriously HOPE that people who got rescued donate money to the rescuers organizations that covers their own personal rescue costs, but I bet you they find all sorts of reasons not to. I wonder if anyone on here who has been rescued, or anyone who works for SAR, would enlighten us on if that happens.
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Re: Elbert S&R last night

Post by Chicago Transplant » Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:09 am

Glad they were safely rescued! Agree on not charging people, but hopefully they will choose to donate some $$ to the SAR group as a thank you :-D
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Re: Elbert S&R last night

Post by SchralpTheGnar » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:46 pm

Why shouldn't all search and rescue cost the person getting rescued money? I've never understood why such a valuable service was free, whether injured/not injured/want a ride down, whatever, call S&R and pay the bill. I just don't get the counter arguments, the euros have been using the pay model for years and it's working well for them, most people carry some type of insurance for it, but that helps with costs to fund these often expensive. They could even text you the estimated cost of the rescue and you could text them back "I'll head back on my own", or "Sign me up". Maybe using :thumbup: or :thumbdown:
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Re: Elbert S&R last night

Post by stephakett » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:02 pm

SchralpTheGnar wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:46 pm
Why shouldn't all search and rescue cost the person getting rescued money? I've never understood why such a valuable service was free, whether injured/not injured/want a ride down, whatever, call S&R and pay the bill. I just don't get the counter arguments, the euros have been using the pay model for years and it's working well for them, most people carry some type of insurance for it, but that helps with costs to fund these often expensive. They could even text you the estimated cost of the rescue and you could text them back "I'll head back on my own", or "Sign me up". Maybe using :thumbup: or :thumbdown:
and if you think about it, we carry health insurance, life insurance, car insurance, renters insurance, homeowners insurance, some of us have business insurance policies... what's $5/mo for one more that would actually fund the people who are saving your butt? if you travel abroad for high peaks you usually have to have some sort of travel insurance, is there actually a good reason this doesn't happen domestically or "here's the way it has always been, the end"
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Re: Elbert S&R last night

Post by Mtnman200 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:07 pm

stephakett wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:02 pm
SchralpTheGnar wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:46 pm
Why shouldn't all search and rescue cost the person getting rescued money? I've never understood why such a valuable service was free, whether injured/not injured/want a ride down, whatever, call S&R and pay the bill. I just don't get the counter arguments, the euros have been using the pay model for years and it's working well for them, most people carry some type of insurance for it, but that helps with costs to fund these often expensive. They could even text you the estimated cost of the rescue and you could text them back "I'll head back on my own", or "Sign me up". Maybe using :thumbup: or :thumbdown:
and if you think about it, we carry health insurance, life insurance, car insurance, renters insurance, homeowners insurance, some of us have business insurance policies... what's $5/mo for one more that would actually fund the people who are saving your butt? if you travel abroad for high peaks you usually have to have some sort of travel insurance, is there actually a good reason this doesn't happen domestically or "here's the way it has always been, the end"
See the link below:
Herbert wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:07 am
douglas wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:10 pm

As much as you’d like to see them pay, it sets a bad precedent. Maybe if they knew they had a big bill coming they might not have called and tried to get out on their own, ending in disaster. From what I have heard SAR is typically pretty adamant about not sending a bill for that very reason.
That's a valid point. There are pros and cons. Here is an article that does a pretty good job of framing the debate.
http://content.time.com/time/nation/art ... 21,00.html
"Adventure without risk is not possible." - Reinhold Messner
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SchralpTheGnar
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Re: Elbert S&R last night

Post by SchralpTheGnar » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:50 pm

I read the article and just think the cons outweigh the pros, I think you'd see not only less unnecessary calls for rescues with a pay for rescue system, I actually think that people would make fewer bad decisions over time. Also a lot of that talks about negligence vs. needed rescue, I'm saying pay for it all, and then you could use the insurance system\court system whatever to determine higher premiums or charges such as trespassing as a result.

Mostly though I just don't see a precedent for this type of system, and it's also not working well, at least with regards to funding, I'd like to see rescuers get paid something, so time to change things up.
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Re: Elbert S&R last night

Post by SkiFree » Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:41 pm

I was told that purchasing a fishing license also doubled as a S&R "get out of jail free card" that let you get away without paying for a helicopter rescue.



So I have been buying a fishing license for the last 15 years for no damn reason!

Why does an ambulance ride cost a fortune while S&R is asked to risk their lives for free
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