Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Threads related to Colorado mountaineering accidents but please keep it civil and respectful. Friends and relatives of fallen climbers will be reading these posts.
Forum rules
Please be respectful when posting - family and friends of fallen climbers might be reading this forum.
User avatar
Tornadoman
Posts: 1438
Joined: 7/30/2007
14ers: 58  8 
13ers: 266 35
Trip Reports (12)
 

Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by Tornadoman »

I don't have a lot of comments on the accident, will look forward to reviewing the complete accident summary on CAIC's website when it becomes available. Glad that SAR was able to perform the rescue, and hopefully the victim will recover quickly and completely!
Climb the mountain so you can see the world, not so the world can see you.
User avatar
Conor
Posts: 1112
Joined: 9/2/2014
14ers: 41  6  6 
13ers: 51 1 1
Trip Reports (7)
 

Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by Conor »

Chicago Transplant wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 5:52 pm I genuinely wish for a speedy recovery for the injured person. Please don't take what I am saying as an attempt to Monday morning QB their decision, or judge them or judge anyone else for that matter.

I just see from people's responses that many are looking at this slope and just not considering it steep enough to slide. I think in general, people are very bad a judging slope angle. I am too, and sometimes things end up being steeper than I thought, so I just want to give you all a relatively simple metric to start to think about slope angle relative to risk.

Most stairs are a maximum of 32 degrees (based on code - 7" riser, 11" tread), so that doesn't feel steep to people. We walk up and down slopes like that all the time, many in our own homes. It's easy to see that type of angle as normal, and not think of it as being avalanche prone.

Most avalanches occur between about 30 and 45 degrees. So if you are out and wondering if a slope is steep enough to slide, ask yourself: "Is the slope about as steep or steeper than a normal staircase?" If yes, then consider it steep enough to slide and evaluate accordingly. Stairs don't really look that steep, but when trying to judge how steep a slope is, I use them as a rudimentary baseline, because I know they are steep enough to slide. Hope that tip helps.

Again, my best to the injured party - I wish you a speedy recovery.
The best tool for analyzing terrain (besides one's brain) to carry in avy terrain is some sort of slope indicator. In today's world I can't think of an excuse to not carry one since one can download an app. It can take some practice since true and apparent inclinations can come into play. Even then, humans are truly awful at trying to eyeball slope angles. As Tremper says, carry a quantitative measuring tool and leave the rules of thumb behind. I was taught a blue ski run is about the line which i think is horrible advice. Especially in colorado since you'll be avoiding just every slope if you're calibrating to colorado blues.
User avatar
Chicago Transplant
Posts: 4008
Joined: 9/7/2004
14ers: 58  12  24 
13ers: 697 39 34
Trip Reports (66)
 

Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by Chicago Transplant »

I carry an inclinometer, they do take getting used to because wind, sun cupping, buried rocks and numerous other micro changes in slope are hard to read. I usually take multiple readings across an area with a ski pole to try and create an average from the micro dips and rolls. You also don't necessarily want to be on the slope in question, making it harder to measure.

My "stair gauge" is mainly a broad example of a slope in the low end of the prime avalanche terrain spectrum. It's my hope that next time people look down a 36 degree slope and think that won't slide, or they should glissade that, maybe they will think twice and compare to a familiar slope that is in a know avalanche range, like a staircase.

By the way I measured the railing outside my apartment when I got home, it's 31 degrees. So is the windshield of my outback near the middle.
"We want the unpopular challenge. We want to test our intellect!" - Snapcase
"You are not what you own" - Fugazi
"Life's a mountain not a beach" - Fortune Cookie I got at lunch the other day
AndrewLyonsGeibel
Posts: 442
Joined: 7/3/2015
14ers: 9 
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by AndrewLyonsGeibel »

Gosh that doesn’t look like it would slide. Although a picture doesn’t really give an indication of slope and snow structure. I probably would have crossed that too.
User avatar
DArcyS
Posts: 943
Joined: 5/11/2007
14ers: 58 
13ers: 544
Trip Reports (3)
 

Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by DArcyS »

Monster5 wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 6:20 pm 2. I/you/others would've made that decision too. I'm a little disappointed in how many forum users consider this a valid justification. It isn't. This kind of thinking leads to a good number of accidents and is often emphasized as a heuristic trap in many mountaineering schools. Would I have descended that gully? Maybe. Does that make it a safe or correct decision? Not at all.
I remember (and just looked at) your Peru TR. I'm willing to bet you still have a pretty healthy respect for what the sun can do to the snow. You're a bright guy, I bet you would've turned away. But who's to say for sure?

An interesting feature of Caltopo is that it gives the ratio of snow depth to snow water equivalent of the snow pack. Right now at the South Colony site it's 2:1, suggesting the snow is quite saturated. (I "think" it tends to be around 5:1 or 4:1 in the winter, but don't quote me on that.) Obviously assessing the snow pack on the mountain is best, but Caltopo can give you a hint at the conditions. Those overnight temps at 10,800' give another piece of information (the horizontal red line is 32 degrees). And so I surmise -- I wouldn't bet my life on what I see on Caltopo.

When I think about shoveling snow after a spring storm, I have no problem concluding that being caught in a spring slide would be horrible. Water is heavy stuff. Shoot, half a shovel of April snow has kicked my butt.
caltopo.PNG
caltopo.PNG (274.92 KiB) Viewed 3609 times
User avatar
Squirrellysquirrel
Posts: 107
Joined: 10/17/2018
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by Squirrellysquirrel »

No judgements on actions taken, simply would like for others to exercise caution and to have access to and use resources accordingly before heading into the backcountry. A discussion here affords more individuals to practice higher levels of caution and to understand potential, unfortunate consequences when assessing snow, etc.

I wish a speedy recovery for the individual and appreciate those involved with her rescue.
"The successful warrior is the average man with laser-like focus." ~ Bruce Lee
User avatar
SurfNTurf
Posts: 1890
Joined: 8/20/2009
14ers: 58  28 
13ers: 127 7
Trip Reports (48)
 
Contact:

Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by SurfNTurf »

Monster5 wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 6:20 pm 2. I/you/others would've made that decision too. I'm a little disappointed in how many forum users consider this a valid justification. It isn't. This kind of thinking leads to a good number of accidents and is often emphasized as a heuristic trap in many mountaineering schools. Would I have descended that gully? Maybe. Does that make it a safe or correct decision? Not at all.
That's one way of looking at it, for sure. I viewed my comment (and others) as a counter to the far more widespread and pernicious trap of, "Well, I would have done X, Y, and Z differently, so there's no way that accident could have happened to me." With the benefit of hindsight and the CAIC's report, I'd like to believe I would have made different decisions. It's easy for anyone who understands the red flags to armor themselves with the false confidence that they'd have done everything right and thus remained safe. But that line of thinking is equally dangerous, if not moreso. It marginalizes critical thinking and self-inspection.

What would the decision-making process really look like, in the field and not on an internet message board with the post-accident report at our fingertips? By all accounts, both the injured woman and her party were experienced and equipped with at least as much knowledge as I have. I'd prefer to have a little nagging voice in the back of my head reminding me to always look twice, think deeper and evaluate critically, rather than an iron self-assuredness that because I can recite a textbook passage from Freedom of the Hills that I would always make the "correct" call under live-fire conditions. It's a reminder to ask questions, always, even when you feel safe and within your capabilities. The Ed Whymper quote has lived in my signature for almost a decade now for a reason.

Obviously none of that is aimed at you, Ryan -- when I think of people who make good decisions in the mountains, you're one of the first names that pops into my head. Just a response to your argument.
“There are two kinds of climbers: those who climb because their heart sings when they’re in the mountains, and all the rest.” - Alex Lowe

"There have been joys too great to describe in words, and there have been griefs upon which I cannot dare to dwell; and with those in mind I say, 'Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end.'" - Edward Whymper
User avatar
FireOnTheMountain
Posts: 1181
Joined: 2/28/2011
14ers: 53  1  23 
13ers: 269 29
Trip Reports (23)
 

Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by FireOnTheMountain »

Monster5 wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 6:20 pm2. I/you/others would've made that decision too. I'm a little disappointed in how many forum users consider this a valid justification. It isn't.
This is where I jumped in with my comment semi-berating CaptCo about observing more and talking less. The fact is, as some have pointed out, the gully did look tame but given the right mixture of sun exposure and time of day, it went. Thats what snow does, it slides. We should all learn from this poor lady's mishap and I hope she recovers well and quickly.
Everyday is a G r A t E f U L Day here in the ID...?
User avatar
rleclair
Posts: 223
Joined: 7/10/2006
14ers: 58 
13ers: 186
Trip Reports (0)
 
Contact:

Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by rleclair »

[/quote]

An interesting feature of Caltopo is that it gives the ratio of snow depth to snow water equivalent of the snow pack. Right now at the South Colony site it's 2:1, suggesting the snow is quite saturated. (I "think" it tends to be around 5:1 or 4:1 in the winter, but don't quote me on that.) Obviously assessing the snow pack on the mountain is best, but Caltopo can give you a hint at the conditions. Those overnight temps at 10,800' give another piece of information (the horizontal red line is 32 degrees). And so I surmise -- I wouldn't bet my life on what I see on Caltopo.

caltopo.PNG
[/quote]
I never knew about this Caltopo option - very interesting - thx for sharing. Related question as I try to get the beta before heading out, with the water saturation levels seemingly high and freezing temperatures this week in some of the mountain ranges, is it too early to consider couloirs? Rather give it another week or two before venturing out? Last weekend I suspect would have been super bad to do so based on the CAIC reports and the wet slide activity I saw early afternoon on Horseshoe. This weekend? Yay? Nay?

Continued positive thoughts and vibes for the injured person last weekend.
"Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home; that wilderness is a necessity; and that mountain parks and reservations are useful not only as fountains of timber and irrigating rivers, but as fountains of life..."
John Muir
User avatar
DArcyS
Posts: 943
Joined: 5/11/2007
14ers: 58 
13ers: 544
Trip Reports (3)
 

Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by DArcyS »

DArcyS wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 12:28 am
Monster5 wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 6:20 pm 2. I/you/others would've made that decision too. I'm a little disappointed in how many forum users consider this a valid justification. It isn't. This kind of thinking leads to a good number of accidents and is often emphasized as a heuristic trap in many mountaineering schools. Would I have descended that gully? Maybe. Does that make it a safe or correct decision? Not at all.
I remember (and just looked at) your Peru TR. I'm willing to bet you still have a pretty healthy respect for what the sun can do to the snow. You're a bright guy, I bet you would've turned away. But who's to say for sure?
I had this thought today: it's one thing for you to write about your experiences, quite another for me to write about them. My apologies if my post elicited bad memories.
ker0uac
Posts: 547
Joined: 8/30/2016
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by ker0uac »

FireOnTheMountain wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 9:45 am Thats what snow does, it slides.
Wow Aristotle, that blew my mind
Those who travel to mountain-tops are half in love with themselves and half in love with oblivion
User avatar
highpilgrim
Posts: 3186
Joined: 3/14/2008
14ers: 58 
13ers: 84 1
Trip Reports (1)
 

Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by highpilgrim »

ker0uac wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 9:26 am
FireOnTheMountain wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 9:45 am Thats what snow does, it slides.
Wow Aristotle, that blew my mind
Like Captco, you should just shut up sometimes.

To paraphrase Steve Gladbach, Rocks move, feet slip and snow slides...and more time in the field increases the likelihood of that happening.
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
Hunter S Thompson

Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
Dick Derkase
Post Reply