Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

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rleclair
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by rleclair » Wed May 06, 2020 10:14 am

[/quote]

An interesting feature of Caltopo is that it gives the ratio of snow depth to snow water equivalent of the snow pack. Right now at the South Colony site it's 2:1, suggesting the snow is quite saturated. (I "think" it tends to be around 5:1 or 4:1 in the winter, but don't quote me on that.) Obviously assessing the snow pack on the mountain is best, but Caltopo can give you a hint at the conditions. Those overnight temps at 10,800' give another piece of information (the horizontal red line is 32 degrees). And so I surmise -- I wouldn't bet my life on what I see on Caltopo.

caltopo.PNG
[/quote]
I never knew about this Caltopo option - very interesting - thx for sharing. Related question as I try to get the beta before heading out, with the water saturation levels seemingly high and freezing temperatures this week in some of the mountain ranges, is it too early to consider couloirs? Rather give it another week or two before venturing out? Last weekend I suspect would have been super bad to do so based on the CAIC reports and the wet slide activity I saw early afternoon on Horseshoe. This weekend? Yay? Nay?

Continued positive thoughts and vibes for the injured person last weekend.
"Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home; that wilderness is a necessity; and that mountain parks and reservations are useful not only as fountains of timber and irrigating rivers, but as fountains of life..."
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by DArcyS » Thu May 07, 2020 12:22 am

DArcyS wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 12:28 am
Monster5 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 6:20 pm
2. I/you/others would've made that decision too. I'm a little disappointed in how many forum users consider this a valid justification. It isn't. This kind of thinking leads to a good number of accidents and is often emphasized as a heuristic trap in many mountaineering schools. Would I have descended that gully? Maybe. Does that make it a safe or correct decision? Not at all.
I remember (and just looked at) your Peru TR. I'm willing to bet you still have a pretty healthy respect for what the sun can do to the snow. You're a bright guy, I bet you would've turned away. But who's to say for sure?
I had this thought today: it's one thing for you to write about your experiences, quite another for me to write about them. My apologies if my post elicited bad memories.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by ker0uac » Thu May 07, 2020 9:26 am

FireOnTheMountain wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 9:45 am
Thats what snow does, it slides.
Wow Aristotle, that blew my mind
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by highpilgrim » Thu May 07, 2020 9:47 am

ker0uac wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:26 am
FireOnTheMountain wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 9:45 am
Thats what snow does, it slides.
Wow Aristotle, that blew my mind
Like Captco, you should just shut up sometimes.

To paraphrase Steve Gladbach, Rocks move, feet slip and snow slides...and more time in the field increases the likelihood of that happening.
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
Hunter S Thompson

Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by ker0uac » Thu May 07, 2020 10:18 am

highpilgrim wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:47 am
ker0uac wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:26 am
FireOnTheMountain wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 9:45 am
Thats what snow does, it slides.
Wow Aristotle, that blew my mind
Like Captco, you should just shut up sometimes.

To paraphrase Steve Gladbach, Rocks move, feet slip and snow slides...and more time in the field increases the likelihood of that happening.
Chill man, you can pull the stick out of your ass once in a while, life isn't that serious
Those who travel to mountain-tops are half in love with themselves and half in love with oblivion
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by highpilgrim » Thu May 07, 2020 10:22 am

ker0uac wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:18 am
Chill man, you can pull the stick out of your ass once in a while, life isn't that serious
And therein lies the difference between you and Captco; one of you can learn from your mistakes.
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
Hunter S Thompson

Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
Dick Derkase
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by CaptCO » Thu May 07, 2020 10:23 am

highpilgrim wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:22 am
ker0uac wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:18 am
Chill man, you can pull the stick out of your ass once in a while, life isn't that serious
And therein lies the difference between you and Captco; one of you can learn from your mistakes.
The hostility :D
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by ker0uac » Thu May 07, 2020 10:36 am

highpilgrim wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:22 am
ker0uac wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:18 am
Chill man, you can pull the stick out of your ass once in a while, life isn't that serious
And therein lies the difference between you and Captco; one of you can learn from your mistakes.
What are you talking about? You are offended by me poking fun at that expression? If you didn't find the stupid joke funny, don't laugh.

It seems like you adopt a confrontational approach to deal with those who disagree with your points of view, it's uncalled for but whatever...
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by d_baker » Thu May 07, 2020 10:41 am

ker0uac wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:36 am


It seems like you adopt a confrontational approach to deal with those who disagree with your points of view, it's uncalled for but whatever...
I think The Deuce is heavily influenced and inspired by his favorite human, President Trump. Very similar traits!
hahha

Edit: But ker0uac, I really don't understand your poke at Fire, but whatever.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by highpilgrim » Thu May 07, 2020 10:44 am

d_baker wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:41 am
I think The Deuce is heavily influenced and inspired by his favorite human, President drumpf.
On a positive note, drumpf's valet has the bug. Maybe he'll take it serious at this point.

Not.
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
Hunter S Thompson

Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by Monster5 » Thu May 07, 2020 10:49 am

Thanks, DArcy, but it'd be hypocritical of me not to open my decisions up to criticism or analysis. I'd rather the criticism be based on incident facts and first-hand decision-making than have someone project/judge decisions based on inaccurate news reports, or third-hand analysis. The Peru incident had a good outcome, whereas a number other snow accidents I've been party to have not.

In this case, we have a fairly objective report of the incident by the CAIC but we're lacking a first hand account of decisions which led to the accident. Per the CAIC report, I'm sure the party could argue minor details (one sun-drenched aspect to another or time of incident), but the overall summary is more or less accurate: a party descended a sun-drenched avalanche path rather than the trail.
We do not have a first-hand report of the decision-making process and it is fully their choice for when/if to provide one. Thus we cannot truly judge or analyze the decisions accurately. Nor is it prudent to demand.

We do have Pat's report of why certain decisions were made, for better or worse, but in order for us to empathize and calibrate our own decision-making process, it is important to understand both the pros and cons of each justification. IMO, it is hubristic and unproductive to portray decisions as good without likewise pointing out the bad. I can point to a handful of decisions I make on every single trip that worked out well but easily could have worked out poorly, and vice versa.

Ironically, in my experience, some of the best, boldest, and most-respected climbers are quite oblivious to consequences. Sometimes I wish I had their ability to turn the mind off when blitzing across a shooting gallery. But then again, I'm glad that most of my partners are still alive.

DArcyS wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 12:22 am
I had this thought today: it's one thing for you to write about your experiences, quite another for me to write about them. My apologies if my post elicited bad memories.
[/quote-
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by d_baker » Thu May 07, 2020 10:57 am

Monster5 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:49 am

Ironically, in my experience, some of the best, boldest, and most-respected climbers are quite oblivious to consequences. Sometimes I wish I had their ability to turn the mind off when blitzing across a shooting gallery.
Monster, do you think they're truly oblivious or have they become complacent, falling into the heuristic traps/human factor symptoms?
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