Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by mtnkub » Tue May 05, 2020 2:14 pm

ker0uac wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:06 pm
While I disagree with those arguments and I will always voice my opinions, I am a teamplayer and I follow the rules, guidelines, laws, blah blah :)
Cool! But that kinda makes you that one nagging kid on the team bus.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by SurfNTurf » Tue May 05, 2020 2:22 pm

stoopdude wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:15 pm

It's easy to Monday morning quarterback on this forum so I'll just say it, I probably would've glissed that slope as well.
At first glance, I can't say I disagree. The slope certainly looks innocuous from the pictures. The biggest red flag for me was that it occurred at 2:45 p.m. on a southeast-facing aspect during a heat wave. We weren't there, but I have to imagine the snow was pretty sloppy. Who knows what, if any, of the traditional wet slide warning signs were present? Not to mention a competent glissader would be on and off that slope in a matter of minutes -- easy to see how the decisions were made, and anyone who says "that DEFINITELY wouldn't have happened to me" is probably lying to themselves. The takeaway lesson I took from the CAIC report is to still remain vigilant, even in spring when things might appear safe on the surface. And start early.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by ker0uac » Tue May 05, 2020 2:33 pm

mtnkub wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:14 pm
ker0uac wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:06 pm
While I disagree with those arguments and I will always voice my opinions, I am a teamplayer and I follow the rules, guidelines, laws, blah blah :)
Cool! But that kinda makes you that one nagging kid on the team bus.
Yep, that one nagging kid is keeping groupthink in check, you are welcome!
Those who travel to mountain-tops are half in love with themselves and half in love with oblivion
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by aholle88 » Tue May 05, 2020 2:53 pm

This one hits a little too close to home. First off though, prayers for the climber making a speedy recovery!

Two years ago, 4/15/18, I glissaded this same slope off Horn down to the creek. It was what you would call “corn” snow up top half, but the bottom did get a little slushy. Not as warm that day as I recall, and I was descending before noon. Looking at the pictures though, the amount of snow was almost identical to this incident. I tried uploading it but the file was too big.

When you see things like this happen, knowing you were in a very similar situation, it always gives pause and time to reflect/learn. Would I have made a different decision knowing this event occurred now? Probably. That day though, the snow in the top half had not heated up enough to be concerned at the time. It was just about perfect spring skiing snow quality (I was really wishing for my splitboard that day!). The bottom half was more concerning and I did my best to stick to the very edge of the snow next to the dirt and just jogged down the dirt some as well. Could that have ripped out though? Possibly, especially given this event. Just considering myself fortunate.

Again, best wishes to the climber for a quick, good recovery. Let’s all learn something from this and not just try to be keyboard warriors.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by Trotter » Tue May 05, 2020 3:24 pm

Ptglhs wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:35 am
jmanner wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:10 am
Hang on, this guy has to get rescued off of Belford?! He’s now on here taking s**t about a rescue?
He talked s**t about a guy who self rescued on shavano and lost his legs below the knees. Then he had to be rescued off of Bel/Ox and tried to downplay it as "I didn't need it but my friend's friend freaked out." Now he's talking s**t about someone who had an accident in the mountains and needed SAR. Did I miss anything?
Wow Ptglhs, finally we can agree on something lol
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by Trotter » Tue May 05, 2020 3:27 pm

Squirrellysquirrel wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:34 am
Monster5 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:07 am
That CAIC report is pretty informative and provides more information than we typically have when speculation occurs on an incident.

While I'm glad the person was rescued and hope they do well, I think they and their group have likely learned some valuable lessons from it, as most of us do with our own mishaps.
Agreed. The snow gully (at a glance) did look deceiving, however:
  • CAIC issued a red warning for last weekend, well in advance to the incident, and provided a detailed report citing all snow as potentially suspect.
    The unconsolidated snow under wet slab has been a persistent issue this spring on upper slopes (see picture taken early March 2020 in N San Juans as around 12.4k; two hard slab crusts atop 2.5 feet of unconsolidated snow... and we’ve had more snowfall since that time with warming temps). I’ve only seen this snow pack become more and more unstable, and took CAIC’s warning to heart.
I appreciate information on sites like these to help prepare/avoid/modify a climb, also recommend taking an avy course or two to determine snow quality on site. With that said, I’m not immune to making poor judgment calls on occasion when it comes to the remaining element of unpredictable qualities for snow, weather, animal behavior, and terrain. Ironically, it’s the unpredictable element that makes the adventure genuine and not cookie-cuttered.

I agree with Monster that I hope some valuable lessons were learned.

A good explanation on why it did slide. Goes to show that even if a snow slope looks like typical late spring perfect glissading spot, it may not be.
After climbing a great hill, one only finds that there are many more hills to climb. -Nelson Mandela
Whenever I climb I am followed by a dog called Ego. -Nietzsche
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by mtnkub » Tue May 05, 2020 4:04 pm

ker0uac wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:33 pm
mtnkub wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:14 pm
ker0uac wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:06 pm
While I disagree with those arguments and I will always voice my opinions, I am a teamplayer and I follow the rules, guidelines, laws, blah blah :)
Cool! But that kinda makes you that one nagging kid on the team bus.
Yep, that one nagging kid is keeping groupthink in check, you are welcome!
Yup, cuz that's what that nagging kid has always been known for!
But seriously, your anti-groupthink message is: "the rules are nonsense! now let's go and follow them!"? Or what?
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by pfiore1 » Tue May 05, 2020 4:16 pm

The current CAIC report is still preliminary. A more detailed analysis of the snow and of the incident as a whole with additional photos will be made available soon so don't take the current one as an total report.

Be well
Last edited by pfiore1 on Tue May 05, 2020 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by Wentzl » Tue May 05, 2020 4:30 pm

I hope that the person who got injured is not feeling any victims guilt about getting hurt or needing rescue. Looking at the photo of the accident site, seems to me that 99 out of 100 would deem it safe for travel. The 100th would be the person that stayed home.

From what I have read, everyone else involved in the incident came out just fine.

Speedy recovery to the injured party.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by ker0uac » Tue May 05, 2020 4:49 pm

mtnkub wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 4:04 pm
ker0uac wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:33 pm
mtnkub wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:14 pm

Cool! But that kinda makes you that one nagging kid on the team bus.
Yep, that one nagging kid is keeping groupthink in check, you are welcome!
Yup, cuz that's what that nagging kid has always been known for!
But seriously, your anti-groupthink message is: "the rules are nonsense! now let's go and follow them!"? Or what?
Well I would state it differently. To be part of a tribe - however you define one - you give up certain individual rights in exchange for the benefits of membership. Some decisions made by the tribe that might produce the most good might not produce the most good for every member, which is the idea of utilitarianism. However, as member of the tribe, you don't get to pick and choose which decisions you will abide by. My dog has the highest AKC obedience certification and incredibly friendly, yet I have to obey the offleash laws. While you don't get to choose which laws you abide by, you certainly have the right (and should exercise it) to voice your opinions and drive change. When we have an election, you voice your opinion via your vote, but next day, you have to get onboard with the result if even if it didn't go your way. However that doesn't mean you have to shut up. I didn't vote for Trump, but he is my president, and to the extent required by law, I'll oblige while criticizing him at every step of the way. I believe in driving change by promoting productive and respectful public discourse, and not by encouraging civil disobedience.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by onebyone » Tue May 05, 2020 5:28 pm

I might have tried to glissade that tbh. Doh
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by Chicago Transplant » Tue May 05, 2020 5:52 pm

I genuinely wish for a speedy recovery for the injured person. Please don't take what I am saying as an attempt to Monday morning QB their decision, or judge them or judge anyone else for that matter.

I just see from people's responses that many are looking at this slope and just not considering it steep enough to slide. I think in general, people are very bad a judging slope angle. I am too, and sometimes things end up being steeper than I thought, so I just want to give you all a relatively simple metric to start to think about slope angle relative to risk.

Most stairs are a maximum of 32 degrees (based on code - 7" riser, 11" tread), so that doesn't feel steep to people. We walk up and down slopes like that all the time, many in our own homes. It's easy to see that type of angle as normal, and not think of it as being avalanche prone.

Most avalanches occur between about 30 and 45 degrees. So if you are out and wondering if a slope is steep enough to slide, ask yourself: "Is the slope about as steep or steeper than a normal staircase?" If yes, then consider it steep enough to slide and evaluate accordingly. Stairs don't really look that steep, but when trying to judge how steep a slope is, I use them as a rudimentary baseline, because I know they are steep enough to slide. Hope that tip helps.

Again, my best to the injured party - I wish you a speedy recovery.
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