Capitol's Death Route

[rob runkle]

I have gone to a climbing gym one time since I started hiking 14ers, and it did not help me better prepare for the terrain.

It's not a gastric bypass - more than a single visit is needed to realize a benefit.

+1
Definitely more than one visit. And, in my experience, weekly, in order to increase in skill level.

[lodgling]

On the 14er standard routes, you should be fine if you focus on 3 Points of Contact at all times.

This seems like a step in the wrong direction, evolutionarilly speaking, that is ...

[John Prater]

I descended Wandering Dutchman just a few weeks ago, . If not that couloir, I do not know anything else that fits that description - ~30 degree gully down to Pierre Lakes, near Capitol.

Possibly the "secret chute" that most of the Capitol skiers have used, though that's certainly steeper than what was described.

The story doesn't really explain the route they took from Snowmass Lake to Capitol though, except it took them two days, and that they wanted to go into Pierre Lakes Basin as a shortcut back to camp.

More details about this in the BGN page for Heckert Pass (expand the Correspondence, Forms, and Supporting Documents sections, notably this and this). Sounds like they used the pass that is now named Heckert Pass (which appears mislabelled on USGS maps) to climb Capitol as a day trip from Snowmass Lake.

[TallGrass]

The description is actually that you do not need to cross the knife edge to access it, as Clark Heckert, the dude getting interviewed didn't, but he still went down the same gully, kicking steps instead of glissading, to see if his Brother was alive.

Take another look... It appears Clark was 12 at the time and not part of the original party. I think he's saying that the gully was between the knife edge and the summit, so if he had been there, being unable to cross the knife edge on the way up, he wouldn't have been in a position to decide whether to descend that gully

I agree.

I didn't read that Clark summited, only that he hiked up into PL basin via Bear Creek (per the description of his hike) 50+ years after the accident to see the terrain where his brother passed.
http://www.postindependent.com/sports/o ... s-earlier/

It appears this is the SAR party with the litter from 1957...


... and this from his hike (ca. 2014) where you can see a gully to the right of Capitol's summit where the ridge levels out a bit which has a dropoff, a scree field below, and lingering snow patches.
http://www.postindependent.com/wp-conte ... 40x930.jpg

Edit: And from the CO_203956_009_Heckert Pass_sup_0000 link above:
"On July 25, 1957 he and Richard Slusser and Eileen Ginter set out for Capitol at about 5 A.M. They made the climb successfully. However in descending, John and Richard decided to glissade down a finger of snow connecting with a large snowfield leading down into Pierre Basin. John led off. His speed got out of control and he was thrown against a large boulder killing him instantly."

Edit: For more on Heckert Pass, mislabeling, Pierre Lakes, check out: http://www.hikingintherockies.com/fourt ... owcapB.htm

[LURE]

I like this quote:

"I know it wouldn't have happened to me because I couldn't get across the knife's edge," he said. "I guess God made me safe. I just laugh about all that. So you have no fear? Well, that's not an advantage.

I guess he is saying at his current age, he couldn't get across the knife edge, so he wouldn't have been in the situation to decide to glissade the gully had he been there at the time, cause he also wouldn't have made it across.

[Sean Nunn]

Speaking of this thread, as far as I an see it has boiled down to two basic viewpoints:

1) Accidents happen. If you were not prepared, or have back luck, then you may die. That is what you accept when you enter the wilderness. It isn't worth cluttering up or otherwise defiling the mountains with signs or other guidance. Educating hikers before they hit the trail is all that needs to be done.

More like...

1) Accidents can happen. You should be properly prepared and have the appropriate skills for, and knowledge about the route you choose to hike. No amount of signage can guarantee your safety. Best placement of signage is not simple, and maintenance of signage by the forest service staff can be difficult (Per the forest service management). Educating yourself before hitting the trail is highly recommended. Fixed cables, rebar handholds, painted bulleyes and escalators may not be available for you on route.

There is an element of truth to what you are saying, but all accidents are preventable by proper planning, knowledge of route, sufficient skill set, etc., because no human is perfect. To flip your argument, no amount of skill and knowledge can guarantee your safety either. There are some very skilled climbers who have died in the mountains.

It is pretty obvious that the Forest Service can't guarantee eternal maintenance of every sign they put up. The fact that something can't be done perfectly is never an excuse for doing nothing, when doing something fairly simple can save lives.

And the idea that one sign is the same as "fixed cables, rebar handholds, painted bulleyes and escalators" is pretty ludicrous.

[rob runkle]

It is pretty obvious that the Forest Service can't guarantee eternal maintenance of every sign they put up. The fact that something can't be done perfectly is never an excuse for doing nothing, when doing something fairly simple can save lives.

Not doing the correct thing - addressing the root cause of the problem - can, and often does lead to unintended consequences. If it were "that simple" then the forest service would have done it already.

[Sean Nunn]

It is pretty obvious that the Forest Service can't guarantee eternal maintenance of every sign they put up. The fact that something can't be done perfectly is never an excuse for doing nothing, when doing something fairly simple can save lives.

Not doing the correct thing - addressing the root cause of the problem - can, and often does lead to unintended consequences. If it were "that simple" then the forest service would have done it already.

I disagree. It seems from what I have read the social trails that have taken people the wrong way have appeared fairly recently. Not to mention you are dealing with the government, which isn't exactly known for rapid responses to problems.

I am not pretending one sign would have prevented all the deaths the last few months. But it certainly could prevent deaths over the next 10 years or so.

[rob runkle]

I disagree. It seems from what I have read the social trails that have taken people the wrong way have appeared fairly recently. Not to mention you are dealing with the government, which isn't exactly known for rapid responses to problems.

It's hard to say. The whole "social trail" being the cause is pure hypothetical from the couch, not from investigating the route. Even if said trail is the cause, it was probably caused by goats, and not humans. They tend to scurry around up there at will and when they travel the same path consistently, it creates a trail. Again, another reason why putting a sign in a specific place doesn't make sense. The goats will probably see the human sign, and just to mess with us, change their habits.

[JerseyBean]

Very informative, thank you.

[Sean Nunn]

I disagree. It seems from what I have read the social trails that have taken people the wrong way have appeared fairly recently. Not to mention you are dealing with the government, which isn't exactly known for rapid responses to problems.

It's hard to say. The whole "social trail" being the cause is pure hypothetical from the couch, not from investigating the route. Even if said trail is the cause, it was probably caused by goats, and not humans. They tend to scurry around up there at will and when they travel the same path consistently, it creates a trail. Again, another reason why putting a sign in a specific place doesn't make sense. The goats will probably see the human sign, and just to mess with us, change their habits.

Good point. I have not been up there so I can't personally say what/who caused the trails, if they are distinct enough to mislead a large number of people, or if they were actually the cause of some of the recent tragedies.

Hopefully we won't have any more tragedies this year. Would it make sense for some of the more elite climbers (not me) who post on here regularly to take a trip up Capitol next year in the late spring/early summer (once most of the snow has melted off the "standard" route) to reconnoiter this and see what the situation is. Then if a sign is justified, perhaps the Forest Service could start the process of getting one where it might help reduce fatalities.

[Erich]

Squabbling indeed. There is at least one user who has been vehemently opposed to any signage whatsoever, and in particular argued both of these points:

1. If a sign is added to one spot where fatal falls occur, it should be added everywhere they can even possibly occur.
2. Adding signage would lead to people taking Capitol lightly and hence lead to more deaths.

I read the aforementioned "freaking out" post as a satire making fun of this person's exercise of taking every measure to its logical extreme.

Then again, I'm not sure if my device is properly calibrated.

Sarcasm_Detector.png

I remember being afraid of Mt. Yale then I heard about the sign and was like, 'Yes! Yale is going to be safe and easy! I'm ready for class 2!' So I grabbed my jeans, hoodie, gun, and dog and hit the trail around noon. Of course when I got there the sign ruined the entire day because it wasn't pure wilderness anymore. 'It was in my field of vision for over 1 minute of my trip, how could I enjoy myself!' Then on top of it all, there was lightning when I got to the summit and I never saw the sign saying there might be a storm!

In all seriousness +1 for a sign in these unfortunate special situations especially on high traffic routes like Challenger/KC and Redcloud. Of course be extremely prepared including gear, conditioning, start time, etc, but if having a sign that could save lives in your sight for a few minutes ruins your experience that much there are 100s of peaks of all classes with no signs. For class 2 Mt. Ouray was awesome. No signs that I remember, no trail, few feet from being a 14er.