Survivor Guilt & Moving On

[12ersRule]

I may very well be the last person to have seen Sudheer alive:

http://publications.americanalpineclub. ... Longs-Peak

I met him near the top of the Trough, he was dressed just as the article described. We stopped and chatted for a minute. Found out he worked at HP, lived in Ft Collins and that we had some mutual acquaintances. He asked how far he had to go and I told him that he had about 3/4 of a mile and 500' in elevation to go (I think that's accurate, but I'm not sure). Gave him some food, a gel pack, and told him to go for it.

When I got to the Keyhole, the weather seemed to turn nastier. There was a huge ominous gust of wind. I saw his 2 friends waiting in the shelter there. They looked super concerned and I remember feeling really bad for them because it was getting a little scary out there.

2 mornings later, I ran into our mutual acquaintance and told him I met his friend on the mountain. He told me about Sudheer dying. They found him at the summit. I was in shock, but I was and still am very mad at myself for giving him encouragement, when I knew he was dressed inappropriately for the conditions and that he was extremely tired.

[Buckshot Jake]

Thank you for sharing these stories. With great reward comes great risk. And I think we as mountaineers tend to accept those risks to keep working towards our goals and personal accomplishments.

[Jay521]

Survivor's guilt is certainly real. I'm sure I'm not the only Nam vet on this site (and there are doubtless some Iraq vets on here as well). Most of us (including me) don't like to talk much about some of our experiences and Darin, I give you tremendous credit for sharing your story so openly. And I think you have great insight when you say that time numbs the experience but one never forgets. And probably shouldn't. Vietnam was 50 years ago and I still remember it like it was yesterday. But I've come to terms with it - as it sounds like you have. That's all we can do or it eats us up. There isn't a one of us that hasn't made a decision that they wish they could have back.

Stay strong, Darin.

[Sean Nunn]

One thing that helped a lot was going out on a couloir climb the following weekend from the accident. I went with a less experienced climber. I let him do the leading as to what line we took near the top, as there's options for steep or less steep. I didn't want to influence the decision.

Darin,

It must be tremendously difficult for you to post this story. So please understand my post is in no way to criticize you or your actions. I know your story is to remind people not to be too harsh on the young climber who just lost his partner in the other thread. Both you and the young man in the other thread have my sympathies for being so close to an accident in the mountains where someone lost their lives.

I do want to point out the quoted words above is also an important lesson to the hiking community, a point most of us probably haven't considered. I think many are too quick to offer encouragement such as "you can do it!" to others, without really considering if that's actually true or not. I'm not saying that's what you did, from your description, it sounded like you offered options to Linda, rather than simply encouraged her. For what it's worth now, I don't think you did any wrong. But I'm sure you've already gone over this in your head countless times over the years.

Most of us want to be supportive, want to encourage others. When others question whether they can do something they think is difficult, it's the social norm for us to say "you can do this!" But I've always thought that in the outdoors, a blanket encouragement like that could be a dangerous thing. As humans, we tend to take more risks when we are in a group, especially if we are with people we trust. With just a little bit of encouragement from people we trust, it is very easy for someone to push themselves on something that they probably would not have attempted if they were making the decision on their own. Pushing themselves to try hard may be a good thing if it is actually something within their limit, but it is also entirely possible that they're pushing dangerously beyond their abilities.

So for anyone who takes on the role of a more experienced partner, before we say things like "you can do it", we need to stop and think if that's actually a true assessment of the situation. And for anyone who's going out with a group or with a more experienced partner, keep in mind that you are the only person who knows your limit and your ability the best, more than anyone else (however experienced they are). Make your own assessment of the situation, don't blindly push on because people tell you "you can do it".
I had this discussion a couple of years ago, but I don't think I got my point across very well.

Again, not meant to criticize your actions or to analyze Linda's decision making, but really to highlight an important lesson you've learned that should be passed on to more people.

I agree, and I also do not mean to criticize or find fault with the OP in any way. Even on simple hikes up "easy" 14ers, I don't really encourage the newbies that are with me on the way up, until we within a few hundred feet of the top. This is because if they need encouragement to keep going up, then they are probably not ready to summit and get back down safely.

Instead I use the mantra: "it is up to you. If you want to keep going I am here with you. If you don't think you can make it then I respect that and I will go down with you. This mountain will still be here next year or 5 years from now for you to try it again if necessary." This keeps me from getting in a position where I have encouraged a rookie "too much" and then have someone who is out of gas and still has to get all the way down a mountain, which can be a real hazard, especially if bad weather pops up.

Again, not criticizing the OP in any way. This is a different scenario than what you are describing. I just wanted to hitchhike on Polar's thoughts.

[fepic1]

Thank You Darin.

[Gueza]

Thanks for sharing Darin.

[jmanner]

Thank you for sharing, I doubt it was easy to write that out.

[d_baker]

Thanks for the responses, and I hope those that have been effected by recent events this summer see this, and know that things can & will get better. For those that were in groups that lost their friend on Capitol this summer, or elsewhere, I suggest a group counseling session if it's feasible to do so. Going in as a group seemed to me a great way to talk out the accident.
I wasn't posting for sympathy for me, but for those that might be going through this kind of tragedy now.

When we did the Needle, it was the first time I had attempted a peak with Linda, as well as two others on the trip. I had climbed with her and been around her in the BMS (Basic Mountaineering School) program in the Pikes group. She was a fit woman, and a kind soul.
Though I didn't know what her risk tolerance was in the mountains. Knowing these kinds of things about potential partners, I think, is an important part of choosing who you go with to the mountains.
Anyhow, as Polar pointed out, our human tendency to encourage people isn't always the right thing to do. I don't think I encouraged her, yet at the same time maybe I did because of my "lead by example" approach to the line I climbed. It was a line I was comfortable with in terms of risk, but it doesn't mean she was even though she attempted it.

After we realized she was gone, we sat with her for several hours. Two members of our team that went to the summit were able to get a call to 911 (or the local sheriff, I'm not sure which) and I believe they were put in touch with Custer County SAR. Thank you Bob!
One member of our team descended to meet the SAR team, and to notify any other climbers coming up about the situation so they wouldn't freak out when they came upon us. We did cover Linda with an emergency blanket/tarp during this time. The tarp was bright red, and it helped SAR and the chopper to locate us.
After a couple of hours, maybe three, I don't recall, I think the chopper flew over. At that time, the weather seemed to be deteriorating as well, so we started a slow, very methodical descent to Broken Hand Pass. Somewhere before the pass, we met up with some SAR members. We talked a little, I think they offered to help pack out Linda's gear at our camp -- but we declined and said we would do it.
It was a very somber quiet hike back to camp, all of us in our own thoughts.

We drove out from the TH and went into Westcliffe where we went to SAR mission control, where we were treated with respect and comforted about the accident. We gave them some details about the accident, and then we went home.
Later that week, we met with Linda's family before her service in Woodland Park. Her family is from Texas. I was so nervous before meeting with them. I don't think they knew of the dangerous aspects to hiking 14ers that their daughter/sister did. And I didn't know what to expect. They were very understanding though. I told them I didn't think she suffered, because I really do believe that.

A day or two after the accident, I called my family and told them what happened. That was also very hard, but I wanted them to know. And I wanted them to know that what I choose to do in the mountains is a risk that I'm willing to accept. As much as they didn't like to hear about any of this, they did and still do understand. They realize that my move to Colorado changed me for the better and that I'm happiest when I can be in the mountains.

Either way, I've come to terms with that day, I don't blame myself anymore, and I have moved on. I still think of her often, maybe not daily but I bet several times a week. I've been back to the Needle a couple of times since then, and I'm happy that I'm able to. I look forward to the day I climb it again! It's one of my favorite 14ers, regardless of that day.



And for those that commented in this thread or privately, with your own stories, thank you.

[Jon Frohlich]

Thank you for sharing too. That was hard to read but I'm glad you shared it.

One of my partners on Crestone Peak was a woman who's boyfriend died from a fall on the traverse. She had tried to talk him out of going but he was determined to finish the 14ers by his 30th birthday and went anyway even with a bad weather forecast. It took them days to find his body. She asked to go with me when she found out that it was one of my last 14ers. It was a very hard day for her to be there. She pointed out the approximate location to us that they found him. It deeply affected her and she never finished the 14ers herself.

I've never had to go through it myself but seeing it in her eyes and hearing her thoughts was hard enough.

[DeTour]

The recent tragedies on Capitol have brought out the full spectrum of responses, many compassionate and thoughtful, some inane and/or heartless. I count this thread as some of the very best. Thank you Darin for sharing your perspective, clearly not an easy thing to do. And thanks to Polar for a thoughtful and yes, helpful response.

[ortegajv]

Hi all, I don't post much on here, but do enjoy reading some of the threads. This particular one is close to my heart. 20 years ago (July 5, 1997), I was with 3 other people doing the Wilson group. I had already done all of the peaks (other than Gladstone) and the other 3 hadn't done any of them. We all hiked Wilson Peak together from the Rock of Ages mine, and that went well. But there was still a ton of snow in Navajo basin and I and one other person didn't think we were equipped to travel there let alone summit Mt. Wilson or El Diente, which are more difficult peaks. So after a bit of discussion, we parted ways - the other person and I traversed the ridge towards Gladstone as it was relatively dry. The other two went towards Mt. Wilson. A little before noon, my partner and I were very close to the summit of Gladstone and there were two people ahead of us. We had left the ridge proper to get around an obstacle, and I was slightly uphill from him. I stepped up on a boulder, it moved, and the whole slope we were on started to slide - large pieces of talus and boulders all tumbling down. I closed my eyes and was pretty sure I was going to die, as I was helpless against the power of the huge moving rocks. So I closed my eyes and just became limp - waiting for fate to take over. But then it stopped, and I was able to wiggle out of the debris that was covering me. I was bleeding badly from my head (I later learned I cracked my skull above the neck), my arms and hands were lacerated and scraped, and my ankles were badly sprained. Dust was in the air, and I couldn't find my partner. I panicked - I knew that I was in bad shape and was scared to go back into the rocks. I was convinced he was dead, but I wasn't sure. Should I risk going out there and finding him? Or should I try and go for help? He's GOT to be dead - look at those huge Boulders. I called his name - nothing. How much time do I have - I'm bleeding a lot, and getting weaker. I figure I have an hour or two of adrenaline in me, and since I was pretty sure he couldn't have survived, and that I couldn't help. I made the difficult decision to leave and get help. I stumbled and limped and bled my way back towards near the trail head, but didn't quite make it as my ankles were too painful. But I finally found some people and they helped me down the rest of the way. Somebody went into town and notified search and rescue; I was taken to the hospital in Montrose. While I was getting stitched up, stapled, scanned, and x-rayed, a doctor told me that a search dog found his body and he had died. I later learned from his family (who identified the body) that he was badly damaged, and barely recognizable. I felt (and still feel) terrible about what happened. I visited the family more than once, shared pictures (from my previous trip there), told the story as honestly as I could, and felt horribly guilty. It took me a few months to recover physically, after the healing process. But emotionally - I don't know. I don't think the family blames me, and I don't think we did anything inherently dangerous. But to this day (20 years later) I struggle. Why did I survive and he did not? So many questions - so many times re-living every minute of that day (and weekend). It was a striking reminder of our mortality, and gave me a new-found sense of gratitude for life. I've heard that Gladstone is not quite as loose as it used to be (since more people have climbed it). But it scares me and I have not been back.

[Scott P]

ortegajv, sorry for you're loss. That sounds terrible.