How do you feel about reservation work-arounds?

[kevmonster]

With more and more permits and reservations in some of our most favorite and iconic areas, how do we feel about the work-arounds?

I've seen numerous posts asking to share rides to the Maroon Bells parking lot with someone that has a permit. We have bikes, ebikes, and taxi rides. We also have people telling others that you probably won't get caught so just "go for it"

I've also seen people trying to get added on to another group for the D&SNGRR for Chicago Basin access. The Forest Service limits 9 "groups" per day rather than total hikers.

Even with creative solutions I'm pretty sure these areas are getting less traffic. But are they? Are creative solutions just part of the game we play? Do these actions go against the spirt of regulations in areas that clearly need protection? Will creativity cause tighter rules and ruin it for everyone?

Surely this thread will devolve into opinions on permits in general but I'll save my 2 cents for a later reply.

[rperth]

Personally I am not a fan. It’s too bad “they”are limiting the number of visitors at various places. From what I’ve read on this site, most people think it’s great. I think it’s sad. We should be figuring out a way to make these areas more accessible.
I’m all for anyone who figures out ways to buck the system. Stick to the man I say. Give them something else to cry about.

[Chicago Transplant]

Specific to the two areas you asked about, the Weminuche Wilderness itself has no limits or reservations (yet!), so the number of groups is strictly coming from the train, they are saying 9 groups of up to 15 people per group. So that could be 9 people or it could be 135 people. It seems rather arbitrary. If they want to limit the number of people, then I think they should come up with a number but this method is just weird to me. They seem to be encouraging strangers to group up and "beat the system".

Similarly, Maroon Bells-Snowmass Wilderness does not limit day hiker numbers. There are some areas with overnight limits, but nothing limiting day hikers. I see the Maroon Lake restrictions as being all about parking, so if you have room in your car why not carpool? Their website even says 6am-8am private vehicle drop-offs are allowed, those people just need a one-way downhill shuttle reservation to get out (or walk/bike the road). Carpooling with someone with a parking reservation seems legit to me.

As far as protection and limiting visitors, it seems to me the efforts have so far largely focused on parking and not general access. There are no limits to the numbers of people who can walk or bike to an area for day hiking to the vast majority of places. The only specific trail that you need a reservation to hike at all that I know of for sure is Hanging Lake, which does have a reservation for hiking the trail, even if you don't take the shuttle (i.e. bike to the TH, or hike from a different rest stop like Shoshone).

I don't know for sure how walk-ins or bikes work at RMNP or Brainard Lake, however, does anyone know if you can park somewhere else and walk-in or bike in or if you still need a reservation?

[TomPierce]

Seems like the above posts sort of mingle two issues: Permits vs. work arounds.

-I have no strong feelings about permits. If one is required I probably wouldn't be very interested anyway. By definition, too crowded. And if one is required I'm going to play by the rules, uncool to cheat. But again I wouldn't be interested (unless it's a river permit, different story. For those I'll either try to get one or more likely go in the off-peak season when the river is shallower & temps colder but it's far less crowded and thus easier to score a permit).

-Work-arounds: If the issuing authority hasn't sufficiently drafted the requirements to prohibit work-arounds (and it's just not that difficult to draft regs well, e.g. just change the word "parties" for "individual users," etc.) then that's on them. No problem to me.

-Tom

[madbuck]

I’m OK with limiting parking, moderately opposed but understanding of limiting willing humans.
I’m generally OK with “workarounds” that involve increased effort instead of money or luck. Ideally there should always be a mechanism for a desperate out-of-towners, once-in-a-lifetimer to go for it.
Analogously, 2 weekends ago my kids and I got a last-minute camping spot in a nice area. The 2 camp spots next to us were reserved but nobody showed up either day (possibly because of bouts of rain). Meanwhile 3 other parties were turned away. Money itself can’t be the only mechanism, despite what Ayn Rand simpleton viewpoints might claim.

[Dave B]

I'd rather see paved and easily drivable access roads plowed up and replaced with single track and no access limits. Make the approach long enough and the hoards are no longer an issue.

Earn your wilderness experience, don't f*cking drive within a couple hundred yards of it.

[justiner]

Cycling isn’t a workaround it’s just another option. Just so happens one doesn’t need 48+ square feet of land to store a bike when you get to the trailhead. Comes with some advantages. Flexibility and cost are two.

[seano]

Do these actions go against the spirt of regulations in areas that clearly need protection? Will creativity cause tighter rules and ruin it for everyone?

Sometimes "creativity" goes against the spirit, but at least as often, it takes advantage of the absurdity of the letter. It will lead to tighter rules, but also better ones. For example, what are we trying to control with Bells permits? If it's the number of people up there, then require each hiker to have a tag. If it's the number of cars waiting in line for a parking space, then hand out a fixed number of parking permits.

Heading off-topic... Like others here, I rarely go places with permits, since that probably means they're miserably crowded. And limiting motor vehicle access solves many of these problems. The Cascade River Road in Washington is normally a tourist hellhole, but by closing the last 6 miles to cars earlier this summer, NPS inadvertently made Boston Basin, Cascade Pass, and a number of other areas bearable again.

[Ptglhs]

Not all work arounds are about legal access. People with 2wd vehicles have to have work arounds for certain roads: hitching up to the wetterhorn TH, doing uncompahgre as an overnight, coordinating with other 14ers members to get a ride to the Lindsey or LB THs, doing Blanca and Ellingwood from Zapata are all things I did. Some work arounds are about cost: the cost to take the train into the Chicago Basin was insane, ditto to do Gannett (WY) from the Wind River Reservation. For those 2 I elected to do more backpacking/hiking rather than pay 100s of dollars.

Work arounds for being allowed on a trail/mountain are different. Those are usually fee based or logistical. Most of the restrictions for Colorado are based on parking, not boots on the trail. Or, in the case of the road to Grays and Torreys, it's a blatant cash grab by the county with the veneer of protecting emergency vehicle access. We haven't seen restriction aimed mostly at keeping the number of people on a trail down. Those are probably still a generation away. California has extenisive permitting for all their parks and wilderness areas. You have to get permits for each campsite and there are rangers on the trail checking and turning people around, several miles into the backcountry, if they don't have the requisite paperwork. (A real shock for someone who does most of his hiking and backpacking in CO and WY, where the attitude is, "Here's a national forest, have fun!")

People can still get to these areas, if they hike more, bike or hitch a ride. I'm fine with people employing work arounds. Like most people I wish the areas I enjoy wouldn't be so crowded, but if I have the righr to enjoy them then so do others.

[climbnowworklater]

I feel bad for today's mountaineers. The days of picking a peak, driving out, and climbing it; are over.

Culebra used to be the outlier, now it's the norm. Drove by quandary and saw people waiting for a shuttle. That sucks. You do a big hike, your hot/sweaty/tired....and now your waiting for a bus!? No cooler in your car, no flip flops.....just waiting. Maybe you wanted to climb longs, oops no permit, sorry. Want to hike DeCaLiBr, closed, sorry.

I bought a lot 2 years ago seeing this coming. Had a cabin built. Covid pushed everyone to the mountains. Now the cabin has doubled in price, in 2 years! It'll be a while before permits are required for my boring 13er nearby, but at that I can walk to the trailhead so no biggie.

If you haven't got your piece of land yet, you are late and better hurry. What is happening will get worse and overtime 13ers and all THs will have issues.

Yet, no one can tell me to reserve a permit to walk on my land and no one can make me wear a mask while walking my property. Sadly, it's come to this, and public access vs private property debates are being settled in favor of private property. Look around! In the case of reservations, the property isn't yours and you don't get free use. The debate is wrapping up. You better get your land or be subject to the whims of whoever "owns" it. If the forest service owns it, they get to tell you to reserve a spot. If it's private, maybe no access at all.

Buy you own land now, they ain't making more.

[Aphelion]

I feel bad for today's mountaineers. The days of picking a peak, driving out, and climbing it; are over.

Culebra used to be the outlier, now it's the norm.

That's more than a bit hyperbolic. One insanely over-visited mountain gets a parking permit system, and the world is over? The vast majority of CO mountains are still just "picking a peak, driving out, and climbing it." Even to get around the permitting systems, all that's really required is to add a couple miles of approach (Brainard), or take a different route (Quandary). Even the Maroon Bells are pretty easily accessible without the parking shenanigans if you can handle the concept of a different approach. There's more to CO than just your personal 13er and the Front Range Instagram trails.

[SkaredShtles]

I feel bad for today's mountaineers. The days of picking a peak, driving out, and climbing it; are over.

Culebra used to be the outlier, now it's the norm.

That's more than a bit hyperbolic. One insanely over-visited mountain gets a parking permit system, and the world is over? The vast majority of CO mountains are still just "picking a peak, driving out, and climbing it." Even to get around the permitting systems, all that's really required is to add a couple miles of approach (Brainard), or take a different route (Quandary). Even the Maroon Bells are pretty easily accessible without the parking shenanigans if you can handle the concept of a different approach. There's more to CO than just your personal 13er and the Front Range Instagram trails.

Agreed - the post is nonsense. I, for one, am glad to see restrictions on the most popular places. I also think that there should be *less* private land in the mountains and more public land.