How do you feel about reservation work-arounds?

[SkaredShtles]

I also personally think that train should be eliminated completely. It's a menace to the forest. Let it run up and down the valley, but don't allow it through the canyon any more.

[espressoself]

Common goods (e.g. the mountains that we love to climb) are subject to the tragedy of the commons. Acting in my own self interest, my use of a trail and public land has a nonzero impact on the land, and negatively impacts it for those who wish to use it in the future. Adherence to LNT minimizes, but does not fully eliminate this problem. Many also do not adhere to LNT principles, which depletes the resource more quickly. The most simple solutions to the tragedy of the commons are privatization, fees, or permits. I don't particularly like having any of these as barriers to entry into the mountains, but I also understand that they are oftentimes necessary to preserve them for both my future use, and for the use of future generations.

I don't have much else to contribute to this discussion, but since we are talking about the train again, be sure to treat yourself to this catchy little tune:

[rijaca]

I think the phrase you are looking for is, "happily pardoned after expressing their 2nd amendment rights.

Pilgrim expressing his 2nd Amendment rights….

AD8DE145-C98B-42C2-B20A-86E02837D43C.jpeg (187.23 KiB) Viewed 4624 times

[headsizeburrito]

all that's really required is to add a couple miles of approach (Brainard)

Can anyone provide some info on this possibility? I've got a friend visiting this weekend and we are hoping to do Eagles Nest to Powell in the Gores but looking for a backup in case weather looks too sketchy to be up there. I was thinking about IPW as a backup with more bailout/hunker down options but forgot about the timed entry since I've only been there in the winter so far.

Can you park in the winter lot without a timed entry permit? Is there a different place to park that's within a couple miles I should use? I'm planning to arrive around 4am but apparently you can't beat the Brainard system that way, you need a reservation to be there at all.

[dwoodward13]

Can you park in the winter lot without a timed entry permit?

Yes

[Scott P]

I feel bad for today's mountaineers. The days of picking a peak, driving out, and climbing it; are over.

If they are over, no one told me about it. I have hiked or climbed on 212 days so far this year and havent had to get any reservations for anything I have done so far.

I'll go to Chicago Basin later this month and needed one for that, but that will likely be the lone example out of all the rest of the days.

To be honest it's actually been pretty lonely. In those 212 days I have only run into a few people. Colorado is mostly empty and I'm sitting on top of a peak right now. I wonder where the nearest other person is? Five miles? Ten miles? The only noise is the wind. The sky, mountain, trees, and flowers are all I can see.

[headsizeburrito]

Yes

Thanks, and apologies for bumping such an old thread, just couldn't find a good answer from a search!

[nunns]

Specific to the two areas you asked about, the Weminuche Wilderness itself has no limits or reservations (yet!), so the number of groups is strictly coming from the train, they are saying 9 groups of up to 15 people per group. So that could be 9 people or it could be 135 people. It seems rather arbitrary. If they want to limit the number of people, then I think they should come up with a number but this method is just weird to me. They seem to be encouraging strangers to group up and "beat the system".

Similarly, Maroon Bells-Snowmass Wilderness does not limit day hiker numbers. There are some areas with overnight limits, but nothing limiting day hikers. I see the Maroon Lake restrictions as being all about parking, so if you have room in your car why not carpool? Their website even says 6am-8am private vehicle drop-offs are allowed, those people just need a one-way downhill shuttle reservation to get out (or walk/bike the road). Carpooling with someone with a parking reservation seems legit to me.

As far as protection and limiting visitors, it seems to me the efforts have so far largely focused on parking and not general access. There are no limits to the numbers of people who can walk or bike to an area for day hiking to the vast majority of places. The only specific trail that you need a reservation to hike at all that I know of for sure is Hanging Lake, which does have a reservation for hiking the trail, even if you don't take the shuttle (i.e. bike to the TH, or hike from a different rest stop like Shoshone).

I don't know for sure how walk-ins or bikes work at RMNP or Brainard Lake, however, does anyone know if you can park somewhere else and walk-in or bike in or if you still need a reservation?

+1. As usual, Chicago Transplant has it figured out. I think it is mostly about parking. Tagging along in someone's car is cool. I am more ambivalent on purposely evading the permit system. That may change next summer once I try to climb in the Elks.

Sean Nunn
Raytown MO

[Chicago Transplant]

Thanks Sean! I should of noted that while there are no restrictions on total people, Wilderness areas do limit individual group sizes and large groups should check the individual regs for the areas they are visiting, usually around 10-15 people per group.

[peter303]

Can anyone provide some info on this possibility? I've got a friend visiting this weekend and we are hoping to do Eagles Nest to Powell in the Gores but looking for a backup in case weather looks too sketchy to be up there. I was thinking about IPW as a backup with more bailout/hunker down options but forgot about the timed entry since I've only been there in the winter so far.

Can you park in the winter lot without a timed entry permit? Is there a different place to park that's within a couple miles I should use? I'm planning to arrive around 4am but apparently you can't beat the Brainard system that way, you need a reservation to be there at all.

You can park at lot just before entrance without restriction. On weekends that lot fills up completely.

Then its an easy extra four miles walk round trip to the Long Lake or Mitchell Lake trailheads. Or you can do a "justiner" and bike to those trailheads.

[climbnowworklater]

"I'll go to Chicago Basin later this month and needed one for that, but that will likely be the lone example out of all the rest of the days."

I hope that's not the future of all 14ers like Chi Ba, Elks, Culebra, Lindsey?..etc. We, of course, didn't have any of these obstacles on hiking 14ers in the past and that was my point.

And I hear you Scott. If you change parameters, there are still lonely peaks out there. I've seen you make that post for over 10 years now. I heeded your advice in a way. I live at 11k next to a 13er no one cares about. I purposely did this in hopes it won't be overrun in my last 30 years of hiking on this earth. Already, in 5 years, crowds are picking up though...sigh.

[Marmot72]

This thread has a crazy amount of tangents. I think we all instinctively detest the pain and ass of permit systems and thus avoid them when possible. What we are bitching about is that we live in a state that has wonderful wilderness areas and the secret got out years ago-so people have flocked to CO for the mountain lifestyle. I can't blame them! So while I might not like limits, permits, etc., I do understand the purpose.

My first time to Conundrum Basin was in 2005. I camped by the hot springs with some friends. I was glad in the morning to see a ranger giving a Boy Scout troop leader a ticket. The codger had reserved three different spots for his leaders and kids to get around the 15 person maximum. Good lesson for the kids to see that trying to cheat/work around the system is well, not honest, which is one of those 10 values of Scouting.

Anyhow, I'll shut up now.