Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

[jscully205]

If you're looking to just climb the peaks efficiently, you really don't need a rope or pro on either if you consider yourself a decent scrambler.

That's a really bad advice. I've done Vestal 3x and Jagged 2x and will definitely recommend a rope for a new climber. I've seen a seasoned climber with hundred of peaks under his belt really struggle on Wham even on class 4 sections and needed to be roped up. Exposure is no joke and it's relentless.
Go climb Breezy 5.5 in Eldorado canyon and see if you want to solo that at 13,000+ ft with a pack and very tired.

Jagged is not as sustained, but there are some hard moves where a slip will be fatal. Also be very careful on the back side, which is typically not protected, but still a very high consequence terrain. And I was 100% happy to have 2x30 m ropes for the raps instead of downclimbing dripping wet slabs.

How is this bad advice? I've soloed Breezy and it's not a good comparison to Jagged as it's harder. Most of way if you biffed it on Jagged, you'd fall on a grassy ledge that's less than 10 ft unlike Breezy. Yeah, some exposure on the back side, but nothing much different than other exposed 14ers. It's really the loose gravel on the rock that is the hazard; you don't want to let your guard down for that.

I still stand by my opinion that if you can down-climb you should. It's less time consuming that rigging those 3 rappels. And I think if you can climb up Jagged, you can climb down. This is coming from someone who went with essentially 2 new climbers who I had full confidence that could.

On Vestal, if you feel like you are going to fall on class 4, then by all means pitch it out. You'll have a lot of rope drag to deal with and again, very time consuming. Not to mention the shitty loose rock you are going to place pro in? It would be more psychological than anything. I did say in the original post that if you feel like a "decent scrambler."

[SnowAlien]

If you're looking to just climb the peaks efficiently, you really don't need a rope or pro on either if you consider yourself a decent scrambler.

That's a really bad advice. I've done Vestal 3x and Jagged 2x and will definitely recommend a rope for a new climber. I've seen a seasoned climber with hundred of peaks under his belt really struggle on Wham even on class 4 sections and needed to be roped up. Exposure is no joke and it's relentless.
Go climb Breezy 5.5 in Eldorado canyon and see if you want to solo that at 13,000+ ft with a pack and very tired.

Jagged is not as sustained, but there are some hard moves where a slip will be fatal. Also be very careful on the back side, which is typically not protected, but still a very high consequence terrain. And I was 100% happy to have 2x30 m ropes for the raps instead of downclimbing dripping wet slabs.

How is this bad advice? I've soloed Breezy and it's not a good comparison to Jagged as it's harder.

Let me rephrase it. Your advice is not bad, it's terrible. Look at all the examples OP mentioned and factor in fatigue and weather. You seem to have some experience with rock climbing in Colorado and Wyoming, just don't project it on someone who doesn't have that sort of background, it's dangerous.
Can these climbs be soloed? Of course they can be and they are by many climbers. But if you have to ask, you shouldn't.
p.s. If you read my post more closely, I am comparing Breezy to Wham.

[Jon Frohlich]

If you're looking to just climb the peaks efficiently, you really don't need a rope or pro on either if you consider yourself a decent scrambler.

That's a really bad advice. I've done Vestal 3x and Jagged 2x and will definitely recommend a rope for a new climber. I've seen a seasoned climber with hundred of peaks under his belt really struggle on Wham even on class 4 sections and needed to be roped up. Exposure is no joke and it's relentless.
Go climb Breezy 5.5 in Eldorado canyon and see if you want to solo that at 13,000+ ft with a pack and very tired.

Jagged is not as sustained, but there are some hard moves where a slip will be fatal. Also be very careful on the back side, which is typically not protected, but still a very high consequence terrain. And I was 100% happy to have 2x30 m ropes for the raps instead of downclimbing dripping wet slabs.

How is this bad advice? I've soloed Breezy and it's not a good comparison to Jagged as it's harder. Most of way if you biffed it on Jagged, you'd fall on a grassy ledge that's less than 10 ft unlike Breezy. Yeah, some exposure on the back side, but nothing much different than other exposed 14ers. It's really the loose gravel on the rock that is the hazard; you don't want to let your guard down for that.

I still stand by my opinion that if you can down-climb you should. It's less time consuming that rigging those 3 rappels. And I think if you can climb up Jagged, you can climb down. This is coming from someone who went with essentially 2 new climbers who I had full confidence that could.

On Vestal, if you feel like you are going to fall on class 4, then by all means pitch it out. You'll have a lot of rope drag to deal with and again, very time consuming. Not to mention the shitty loose rock you are going to place pro in? It would be more psychological than anything. I did say in the original post that if you feel like a "decent scrambler."

Maybe go read the thread about the death on Pico recently and think about whether this is good advice.

[12ersRule]

Maybe go read the thread about the death on Pico recently and think about whether this is good advice.

And maybe this thread about WyomingBob too.

https://www.14ers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40596

[RyGuy]

That's a really bad advice. I've done Vestal 3x and Jagged 2x and will definitely recommend a rope for a new climber. I've seen a seasoned climber with hundred of peaks under his belt really struggle on Wham even on class 4 sections and needed to be roped up. Exposure is no joke and it's relentless.
Go climb Breezy 5.5 in Eldorado canyon and see if you want to solo that at 13,000+ ft with a pack and very tired.

Jagged is not as sustained, but there are some hard moves where a slip will be fatal. Also be very careful on the back side, which is typically not protected, but still a very high consequence terrain. And I was 100% happy to have 2x30 m ropes for the raps instead of downclimbing dripping wet slabs.

How is this bad advice? I've soloed Breezy and it's not a good comparison to Jagged as it's harder.

Let me rephrase it. Your advice is not bad, it's terrible. Look at all the examples OP mentioned and factor in fatigue and weather. You seem to have some experience with rock climbing in Colorado and Wyoming, just don't project it on someone who doesn't have that sort of background, it's dangerous.
Can these climbs be soloed? Of course they can be and they are by many climbers. But if you have to ask, you shouldn't.
p.s. If you read my post more closely, I am comparing Breezy to Wham.

I would agree with Natalie that while these peaks CAN be solo'd, if someone is asking about a guide, the confidence already isn't great. There is nothing wrong with that. So pushing them to just go and do it is unwise.
James - I certainly respect your abilities, but I also think your risk tolerance is a fair bit more than most folks.
When I did both Wham and Jagged, I was very happy to have had a rope. Wham wasn't hard technically, but basically after the grassy ramp, you are in a no-fall zone for a LONG time. Then on Jagged, I would say you are constantly moving in and out of no-fall zones. When I did it, it had been raining HEAVILY the 3 days prior, so the grassy areas were wet and muddy. I initially didn't rope up as we started the first crux, however when I went to go take the first step up and had my foot slip due to mud, I was happy to rope up for crux 1 and the next 3 cruxes just in case. I am especially glad for making that decision after reading about Bryan's fall on Pico earlier this morning.
The rope is like insurance. Yeah it sucks to carry it and mess with it, but it's worth it's weight in gold if something bad happens. (Plus the rap off Jagged is pretty awesome!)

To that end, if the OP is looking for a guide (and rope)...Jagged is probably worth it. Vestal...not in my opinion, but if you want to do Wham and have a bit less worry about exposure, not a bad idea.

-Ryan

[nyker]

I'm curious whether y'all think it's worth it. I've done my fair share of scrambling, but I don't currently have the technical rope skill (or gear) required to safely go up*. Ideally, this would be a way to go beyond my normal comfort zone without having to spend years learning all the intricacies of technical climbing. I also figure that the $$ required to get+learn to properly use a trad rack will probably rival the cost of a guide anyway.

If this does sound like a good idea, anyone have any guiding outfits that they recommend? I was looking at San Juan mtn guides but am open to any suggestions. Partners are welcome too if anyone wants in -- ideally, we'd get a few climbs in beforehand though (I'm planning to do the guided trip on Labor Day weekend). I'd want to hire a guide for the technical portion, then stay up there for an extra day or two for some (non-guided) scrambling -- Arrow/Trinities if in Vestal Basin, Knife Pt/Leviathan/Vallecito/maybe others if in Noname Basin.

*I know that Vestal can be done at class 3, but I'm primarily interested in ascending via Wham Ridge.

Tom's response below is a good one:

I think I'm an OK scrambler and I took a rope for the rappels on Jagged, which I climbed alone fwiw. Could I have downclimbed it without a rope? Absolutely. But it's a style issue to me, not an issue of ability. I think that if you want to climb a long time and die peacefully in your sleep, you learn to pluck the low hanging climbing safety fruit, i.e. reasonably reduce your risk of injury when it's easy to do so. I was alone, miles from nowhere, and even a short fall could've resulted in a sprain or break. What then? Or if the weather fell apart? Downclimbing wet rock? I've done it many times but would prefer to descend on a rope over wet 4th/5th class terrain, esp in a storm.

Live to climb another day. Everyone is immortal in the mountains, until they're not. Just my opinions.

-Tom

PS: OP, if you don't feel solid for the climb and you don't have competent partners who could lead and/or rig a rappel, get a guide. Jagged isn't really all that hard as 5th class peaks go, but people have run into problems on it. Have a great climb!

I was asking myself the same question about Rainier before I climbed it. Around where I live, few friends would ever consider doing that with me much less have any relevant experience to act as an asset on a team and at the time I didn't know a lot of mountain-capable friends but I was set on doing it but also wary of climbing with partners I didn't know well. Could I summit it solo and return safely? Was I fit enough? Yes I am sure I could have provided no crevasses opened up as I walked over them, no seracs fell on me, or stepped across any hidden avy triggers and there was no whiteout, unforeseen weather, etc. But, why take so many risks. I joined a guided group, guides who knew of recent conditions, had radio contact in case things went south, had the technical savoir-faire and taught me a thing or two and I had a great, much safer time than had I done it solo and lucked out getting back down in one piece. Had I known a few folks with that sort of skill to climb with back then, maybe I'd just have gone with them (which would still be guided, just not a "paid" guide).

So consider the source when seeking advice, when someone says no rope is needed, what they are usually saying is 'they' don't use a rope, whether that's wise or not depends on the circumstance, route, person, etc. but that's not to say others won't benefit from using a rope or that one really should use a rope. Maybe the person suggesting that is a rock ninja and climbs 5.10 routes every day. Ego has a lot to do with folks responding to questions about ropes and guides, fyi. If you consider yourself a newbee when it comes to technical rock climbing, by all means seek experienced assistance in the form of a qualified guide and learn the ropes, so to speak. You could in the meantime before your climb gain some experience on increasingly exposed Class 3 routes, building your tolerance for exposure and make sure your fitness is rock solid all of which will contribute to a better experience on the mountain even with a Guide.

You might find some folks on this site with great experience and technical skills that could be your partner and act as your guide, formally or if informally (i.e. unpaid). If you do find someone to climb with here, I'd suggest you get to know each other, do some easier hikes together and understand each others risk tolerance and establish a leader/follower relationship early so each knows what they are getting into and what to expect.

Good luck!

[randalmartin]

Ego has a lot to do with folks responding to questions about ropes and guides, fyi.

+1

I used a guide last year on the Bells traverse. While it was within my technical ability I would have taken significantly more risk in doing it without a guide. Everyone has a different line on what risk they are willing to take. I wasn't comfortable taking those risks knowing I had a family relying on me. It was money very well spent and in the end I enjoyed my trip immensely more than I would have without a guide. I was free to focus on execution knowing I had a strong climber and route finder with me that I could rely on.

[Wildernessjane]

Hellmann, I’m not sure anyone can answer the question of whether it’s worth it as I think you need to consider your current skills, risk tolerance, financial situation as well as your long term goals. Both routes are spectacular and definitely worth doing though. One thing I did want to say is if you decide it’s worth it for you to hire a guide, consider looking for someone who will take on more of an instructional approach versus simply getting you to the top. This way you are also advancing your skills so you will be ready to take on similar objectives in the future. Obviously you’re not going to be a competent trad lead climber from these one or two experiences but you should be able to learn how to set up a rappel, for example, and acquire the basic skills required to be a good climbing partner (follow trad).

[blazintoes]

Hellmann, per usual I really like nkyers' advice. Do you know what's great about guides? Less planning. On top of the many things you manage on technical backpack trips, having someone that you pay to help with logistics, route finding, gear, safety etc. will help with overall fatigue and will make your trip more enjoyable.

[hellmanm]

Edit: TLDR -- probably going with a guide. Thanks for advice/recs.

Thanks all for your perspectives. I appreciate the recommendations and examples that come with them. I especially appreciate the variety of takes -- from those who addressed the routes themselves, to those who addressed the rope/risk issue, to those who spoke more about skill development. You all provide a tremendous amount of depth to your answers and I really appreciate that.

After doing some thinking (really over the past few months, but supplemented by posts and such today), I'm leaning towards going with a guide. I climb for a number of reasons, but one of the main ones is my relationship with fear/anxiety. I'm (abashedly) a little reckless by nature, but I also over-think, over-reflect, and worry about everything. Even on easier climbs, I always worry that either something might go wrong (e.g. maybe this is the day that my usual sleep-deprived headache is really altitude sickness and I'm about to get HAPE/HACE), or that something is already wrong (e.g. maybe my bad mood is a sign that I've lost my passion, and not that I'm dehydrated+have been slogging in the sun for 8 hours). As such, one of the things I confront with every climb (even the class 1/2 ones) is what is reasonable to worry about, and to what extent. Learning to manage my own head is both the most challenging and most fulfilling aspect of climbing. There are a ton of other reasons too, but each mountain forces me to confront sources of concern (whether they're related to the task at hand or not).

Part of why I'm leaning on going with a guide is because they'll help calibrate that worry/overthink meter in a situation (technical alpine climbing) that I haven't faced before. Oh, and the skill development and convenience factors that y'all have mentioned sound pretty nice too. It's always nice to be spoiled/pampered from time to time, after all .

[jscully205]

Wow, I guess I should consider my audience is mostly hikers in this forum and very conservative decision makers. I offered what sounds like an unpopular opinion/counterpoint to a bunch of posers that point to threads of accidents that happened to reinforce said conservative decision making. Exposure is something you inure yourself to. There's probably plenty of "no fall" areas that the OP probably encountered before. What difference does it make on a different mountain? Anyway It sounds like the OP is really nervous about climbing the peaks. He's not confident in his abilities and doesn't possess the degree of skill necessary to climb them, so hiring a guide is probably the way to go.

And Natalie, just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I give "terrible" advice. Just because you and your friend were scared on Jagged, doesn't mean you should overstate the difficulty and exposure of the climb. Also, Breezy isn't even close to comparable to Wham either. What are you smoking? For one, Jagged and Wham are both done in tennis shoes in summer conditions. Most people solo Breezy wearing climbing shoes. Second, 5.5 is much different than 5.2 or 4th class for that matter.

Why don't you just let us all know how it goes up there OP? You really do just need to see them for yourself.

[DArcyS]

As such, one of the things I confront with every climb (even the class 1/2 ones) is what is reasonable to worry about, and to what extent.

You're in your mid-20s. What's the rush? Given what you worry about, perhaps taking more time to gain additional experience in the mountains would be beneficial. With more experience, you'd probably enjoy the peak more when you do get around to climbing it. Just a thought.