Ultramarathon Deaths

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Tornadoman
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by Tornadoman »

montanahiker wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:46 pm
shays_days wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:29 pm Adding 1 data point for team trail runner. Boots may (I'm skeptical) give marginal ankle support but they also are heavy, annoying, get waterlogged (and heavier), and aren't usually breathable. Ankle support goes both ways and ankle support usually also comes with less ankle mobility, making your feet more inflexible and less adaptable to varying terrain. Walking across a talus field in boots sucks compared to trailrunners because every rock is at a different angle and your ankle has to stay in a straight line.

They're also worse than trail runners for any scrambling you might encounter, and subjectively I think it's nicer to be able to feel a little bit of the terrain under your feet.

At the end of the day wear what you like, there are tons of people that crush in boots and good for you, but I think it's a little silly to say people don't think about how injury prone trail runners are compared to boots. I find it really unlikely that someone who sprained their ankle with trail runners on would have been fine if they wore their boots that day.
This is probably what is holding me back from switching. My feet tend to get worn out on longer hikes and feeling more of the terrain doesn't sound like it would be worth the weight savings.

What's the difference between hiking shoes and trail runners? Just more flexibility/less foot protection? If I were to leave boots is it even worth moving to hiking shoes or should I just go straight to trail runners.
A hiking shoe seems to be the footwear that works best for me. I don't mind trail runners on C1 (actually would prefer them there if I were on mostly trails) but overall for my feet/the varied terrain I find myself in, I like the hiking shoe which is light enough to move quickly with enough support to keep me happy. My least favorite thing about the trail runners I had was there was no cushioning in the shoe box. I am clumsy and kept stubbing my toes when I tried them on more challenging terrain, and without the support it was painful. Your results may vary. :lol:
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SamWerner
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by SamWerner »

If you're taking a misstep that's severe enough to sprain/break a healthy ankle, I'm skeptical that a summer hiking boot would do anything to stop that. Meanwhile, if you're wearing lighter shoes, you have a lot more fine control over where your feet are going, and more flexibility to adjust the angle of your foot/ankle to adapt to the rocks you're stepping on. I would imagine that most of the ankle injuries from RMNP that Monster5 mentioned are from inexperience rather than just footwear (given how RMNP seems to be a magnet for wildly unprepared people)
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by DArcyS »

Monster5 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:23 pm Boots may be cumbersome for an experienced mountain athlete, but I'd sure as hell swaddle my visiting top heavy relatives from the flatlands in the burliest boots I could find.
Psst. A little confession. I've had the thought of doing one of my longer hikes (15+ miles) in trail runners. Getting old, maybe it might work better. Don't tell anyone, please. But before I do this, I'll be sure to protect my ankles with tape just to give some support. Tape jobs seemed to work wonders with sprains when I played sports many moons ago.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by Kevin Baker »

There's definitely a fine line of safety with regards to weather in longer trail races. I have never raced more than a marathon or been in bad weather during a race. Most people don't have much in the way of additional layers and it's much harder to regulate body temps. We have the luxury of looking at fairly accurate point forecasts for certain elevations here in the US, but that's probably not available in remote areas of China. Very tragic.

Regarding boots vs trail runners, I wear a hybrid shoe in summer that is lighter than boots but more robust than trail runners if I know there's going to be a lot of rough, off trail terrain. There's very few hikes I do in summer where there's no talus, boulders, or choss to deal with.
Always do what you are afraid to do. -Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by madbuck »

shays_days wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:29 pm At the end of the day wear what you like, there are tons of people that crush in boots and good for you
I agree with the first part, wear what you like! Be comfortable, be safe.
The second part is "nice" -- wondering though, who does "crush" in boots? (seriously)
DArcyS wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:53 pm Psst. A little confession. I've had the thought of doing one of my longer hikes (15+ miles) in trail runners. Getting old, maybe it might work better. Don't tell anyone, please. But before I do this, I'll be sure to protect my ankles with tape just to give some support. Tape jobs seemed to work wonders with sprains when I played sports many moons ago.
Go for it! It will put you in the company of Cave dog, Andrew Hamilton, Karl Meltzer, Heather Anderson, Joe "Stringbean" McConaughy, Kilian Jornet, Tony Krupicka, Sabrina Stanley, Nick Clark, Cam Cross, Justin Simoni, Joe Grant, and others (off the top of my head) that have 'crushed' mountain distances beyond 1 day and 100 rugged miles up through 1000+ miles in Colorado and beyond.
Such athletes have benefit not just temporarily from the economy of trail runners (sometimes for weeks upon end), but also maintain and build fitness and conditioning into the winter and across the years.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by madbuck »

Monster5 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:23 pm Speaking with the RMNP rangers, twisted ankles and lower extremity rescues account for the vast majority of their calls. Pretty much daily.
Boots may be cumbersome for an experienced mountain athlete, but I'd sure as hell swaddle my visiting top heavy relatives from the flatlands in the burliest boots I could find. =D>
=D>
Perfect summary!
I'd similarly suggest plush "comfort" bikes and beginner all-mountain skis as opposed to skinny road bikes and lightweight skis with AT race bindings.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by madbuck »

I try to balance the topicality and utility of my posts (vs. silly throwaway comments), so back on topic, I'd suggest we can look at these events using similar
Avalanche heuristics:

Familiarity
Acceptance
Consistency
Expert Halo
Social Facilitation
Scarcity

It's hard and committing to get to the start line of these races, especially when remote, and they may be once-in-a-lifetime (in terms of finishing, or winning) for many people (Scarcity).
You're watching people around you, including what they're wearing (Social facilitation) and don't want to miss out (Acceptance). You're trusting fellow runners and the organization (Expert Halo), and all of your previous runs and races in similar conditions have been safe (Familiarity, Consistency).

Since you're not going to be able to make a good judgment "in the moment," it's a good thing to think about *ahead of time* if you're a runner or race coordinator.
Tragedy all-around, but I think the lessons are more universally human than they are specifically cultural, IMHO.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by justiner »

I've actually been using the mid-hiker version of the Ultra Raptor in the mountains and on cruddy days closer by. I like 'em! Thumbs up for 14ers. Other companies make mid-hikers based on their trail runners as well. Shop around and see if a brand/model fits you. Maybe easier to transition to instead of from a boot, straight to a trail runner.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by Jorts »

DArcyS wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:46 am Within these two ends is an increased risk of injury from wearing trail runners, such as a severely twisted ankle that prevents one from walking out, trying to cross snowfields where kicking steps with flimsy shoes is impossible, and perhaps climbing on rock with what may be less than ideal tread.

I get the idea you're involved in SAR, so perhaps you might be able to give me a sense of the frequency of these types of accidents.

The first two factors I've thought of for many years. The last factor is a consequence of the fatality near Telluride a week ago -- the news stated he went for a "run" from Telluride, and then fell on a difficult ridge. Perhaps snow related, perhaps rock related, perhaps not related at all to trail runners.

Anyways, I don't think people adequately consider the increase risk of injury or accident by wearing trail runners.
With respects to lower leg injuries... it depends. I don't think I've ever encountered a fit, localish mountain runner with a twisted or broken ankle in the backcountry. Most of the lower leg injuries I've seen involve hikers in both boots and trail runners... even tevas. I would guess that fitness and experience are better indicators for risk of injury, irrespective of footwear.

Anecdotally, I fully twisted my ankle bombing down the front side of Eccles Pass running toward Meadow Creek in Frisco about 3 miles from the TH 3 years ago. Heard a pop and everything. But my ankles are kind of beefy and I was able to run out under my own power. I took off a week and only biked then started running again. If I didn't run frequently I think it would have been a serious sprain or break.

Like I alluded to before, there are benefits to both options. You can smear much better in vibram trail runners than full shank boots, no? And yes, can kick steps and edge better in full shank boots. If summer speed and fluidity are the priority, mountain trail runners usually win out.
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timisimaginary
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by timisimaginary »

something similar just happened in Utah.

https://www.irunfar.com/what-really-hap ... -mile-race

fortunately, no deaths or serious injuries this time.

i don't think there's enough info to draw a direct comparison between what happened in the chinese race and this one, but one thing's for sure, these races can't be taken lightly. anytime you go up in the mountains, you are responsible for your own safety. the race directors have a responsibility to make the race as safe as possible, but ultimately, individual runners need to be responsible for themselves and the decisions they make, and should never take for granted that any mountain or wilderness event is going to somehow be safer just because it's an organized event. men make plans and nature laughs.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by Ed_Groves »

timisimaginary wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:05 pm something similar just happened in Utah.

https://www.irunfar.com/what-really-hap ... -mile-race

fortunately, no deaths or serious injuries this time.

i don't think there's enough info to draw a direct comparison between what happened in the chinese race and this one, but one thing's for sure, these races can't be taken lightly. anytime you go up in the mountains, you are responsible for your own safety. the race directors have a responsibility to make the race as safe as possible, but ultimately, individual runners need to be responsible for themselves and the decisions they make, and should never take for granted that any mountain or wilderness event is going to somehow be safer just because it's an organized event. men make plans and nature laughs.
This could possibly warrant its own thread. Thanks for the link. Loved the Jordan Stuart video at the end.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by nunns »

timisimaginary wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:05 pm something similar just happened in Utah.

https://www.irunfar.com/what-really-hap ... -mile-race

fortunately, no deaths or serious injuries this time.

i don't think there's enough info to draw a direct comparison between what happened in the chinese race and this one, but one thing's for sure, these races can't be taken lightly. anytime you go up in the mountains, you are responsible for your own safety. the race directors have a responsibility to make the race as safe as possible, but ultimately, individual runners need to be responsible for themselves and the decisions they make, and should never take for granted that any mountain or wilderness event is going to somehow be safer just because it's an organized event. men make plans and nature laughs.
As someone who has organized trips to Colorado with high school students for the purposes of altitude training and introducing the sport of mountain "climbing" (really just hiking on class 1 & 2), I try to impress upon kids that "this is not Worlds of Fun or Six Flags. There are no guardrails or safety harnesses up there. If you are goofing around and not paying attention to what you are doing, there are places where you could fall and be seriously injured." That doesn't even take into account the possibility of lightning, exhaustion, hypothermia, dehydration, etc. It is hard to make high school kids understand that while we try to pick mountains that are "safe", no mountain is completely safe and certainly they are not idiot-proofed. We still see kids carrying a "spike bag" with nothing but a liter or water and a sandwich.

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"Thy righteousness is like the great mountains." --Psalms 36:6
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