Cherry-picking plus appeal to authority. I didn't address the actual efficacy of cloth masks because "the Science is Settled" on that, as every medical expert declared them not-useful-and-potentially-harmful a year ago and the data supports that.
Masks in the Mountains
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Re: Masks in the Mountains
"There are no hard 14ers, but some are easier than others." - Scott P
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- crossfitter
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Re: Masks in the Mountains
Some notable quotes from your paper:rijaca wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:22 pm
Here's an article from 2008 to consider...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/
The paper, like the mannequin study from last year, only looked at measured droplets in the air and does not measure actual infectivity. The paper explicitly notes that this might help with influenza because of the relatively low R0, but that efficacy is reduced for very small droplets. The paper also notes that masks are not particularly effective at preventing outwards transmission. N95 style masks are upwards of 50x as effective as homemade masks. It points out the limitations that air leakage from mask fit is highly significant and that masks don't help children as much.
If you really want to see how well masks work, you need to put a couple dozen people with and without masks in a room with a covid positive patient and see what happens. I have a question for the mask-believers: how confident would you actually feel sharing a room with a known covid+ individual wearing a buff? I'll bet $1000 that none of you would actually feel safe doing that. If you truly believed that masks were as effective as advertised, you would have no problem being right next to a sick but masked individual.
All the science and common sense says the same thing: if you actually want a mask that works, you need something that is truly PPE. I have a solution for you - you can solve the pandemic for yourself immediately with this simple purchase.
But we all know that isn't going to cut it, because mask wearing has nothing to do with efficacy, it's all about showing obedience. And dissenters will not be tolerated and must be silenced.
- A mountain is not a checkbox to be ticked
- Alpinism and mountaineering are not restricted to 14,000 foot mountains
- Judgment and experience are the two most important pieces of gear you own
- Being honest to yourself and others about your abilities is a characteristic of experienced climbers
- Courage cannot be bought at REI or carried with you in your rucksack
- Alpinism and mountaineering are not restricted to 14,000 foot mountains
- Judgment and experience are the two most important pieces of gear you own
- Being honest to yourself and others about your abilities is a characteristic of experienced climbers
- Courage cannot be bought at REI or carried with you in your rucksack
- crossfitter
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Re: Masks in the Mountains
FIFY
- A mountain is not a checkbox to be ticked
- Alpinism and mountaineering are not restricted to 14,000 foot mountains
- Judgment and experience are the two most important pieces of gear you own
- Being honest to yourself and others about your abilities is a characteristic of experienced climbers
- Courage cannot be bought at REI or carried with you in your rucksack
- Alpinism and mountaineering are not restricted to 14,000 foot mountains
- Judgment and experience are the two most important pieces of gear you own
- Being honest to yourself and others about your abilities is a characteristic of experienced climbers
- Courage cannot be bought at REI or carried with you in your rucksack
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Re: Masks in the Mountains
Out of morbid curiosity, what is the hoped for outcome of this verbal puke-fest?
- Somewhat of a Prick
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- crossfitter
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Re: Masks in the Mountains
In an effort to avoid adding to the puke fest, I will attempt to answer your question in graphical form.
- A mountain is not a checkbox to be ticked
- Alpinism and mountaineering are not restricted to 14,000 foot mountains
- Judgment and experience are the two most important pieces of gear you own
- Being honest to yourself and others about your abilities is a characteristic of experienced climbers
- Courage cannot be bought at REI or carried with you in your rucksack
- Alpinism and mountaineering are not restricted to 14,000 foot mountains
- Judgment and experience are the two most important pieces of gear you own
- Being honest to yourself and others about your abilities is a characteristic of experienced climbers
- Courage cannot be bought at REI or carried with you in your rucksack
- lordhelmut
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Re: Masks in the Mountains
Meanwhile - 91 people voted masks are absurd in the poll (assuming any merit can be given to the seriousness of the answers). Sounds like a lot of people on here are actually on the same page.
But I agree with SOAP. What is happening with kids these days is pretty sick and twisted, including high school and college students. Why parents are paying for college tuition right now is beyond me, especially at the Ivy League, who rear ended all their college athletes for another season while the rest of the country held successful seasons in the winter and spring. But I guess they are all just smarter than us and we should bow down to their intellect.
But I agree with SOAP. What is happening with kids these days is pretty sick and twisted, including high school and college students. Why parents are paying for college tuition right now is beyond me, especially at the Ivy League, who rear ended all their college athletes for another season while the rest of the country held successful seasons in the winter and spring. But I guess they are all just smarter than us and we should bow down to their intellect.
Re: Masks in the Mountains
Most notable quote from the paper....crossfitter wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:44 pmSome notable quotes from your paper: ....rijaca wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:22 pm
Here's an article from 2008 to consider...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/
Principal Findings
All types of masks reduced aerosol exposure, relatively stable over time, unaffected by duration of wear or type of activity, but with a high degree of individual variation. Personal respirators were more efficient than surgical masks, which were more efficient than home-made masks. Regardless of mask type, children were less well protected. Outward protection (mask wearing by a mechanical head) was less effective than inward protection (mask wearing by healthy volunteers).
Conclusions/Significance
Any type of general mask use is likely to decrease viral exposure and infection risk on a population level, in spite of imperfect fit and imperfect adherence, personal respirators providing most protection. Masks worn by patients may not offer as great a degree of protection against aerosol transmission.
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- Somewhat of a Prick
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Re: Masks in the Mountains
A screen door on a submarine also keeps out some water. A piece of cotton might keep some aerosol droplets away, but not nearly enough to make a bit of difference.rijaca wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:07 pmMost notable quote from the paper....crossfitter wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:44 pmSome notable quotes from your paper: ....rijaca wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:22 pm
Here's an article from 2008 to consider...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/
Principal Findings
All types of masks reduced aerosol exposure, relatively stable over time, unaffected by duration of wear or type of activity, but with a high degree of individual variation. Personal respirators were more efficient than surgical masks, which were more efficient than home-made masks. Regardless of mask type, children were less well protected. Outward protection (mask wearing by a mechanical head) was less effective than inward protection (mask wearing by healthy volunteers).
Conclusions/Significance
Any type of general mask use is likely to decrease viral exposure and infection risk on a population level, in spite of imperfect fit and imperfect adherence, personal respirators providing most protection. Masks worn by patients may not offer as great a degree of protection against aerosol transmission.
But this is a moot point now, this debate. We have highly effective vaccines at the ready. Its time we start acting like it
- crossfitter
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Re: Masks in the Mountains
Notice the specific language that these authors use: "is likely" "may not". These are weasel words used to arrive at a conclusion that was never actually tested or measured by the paper. The only thing this paper actually shows is that there are [much] fewer water droplets transmitted on inhalation through an N95 style mask than a cloth mask. There isn't even a control group to compare the homemade masks to baseline. It doesn't say anything about the actual transmissibility of droplets vs aerosols or what the exposure threshold is. Attempting to abstract these results to impacts on infectivity is pure speculation and abstraction, and outside the bounds of this study.rijaca wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:07 pm
Most notable quote from the paper....
Principal Findings
All types of masks reduced aerosol exposure, relatively stable over time, unaffected by duration of wear or type of activity, but with a high degree of individual variation. Personal respirators were more efficient than surgical masks, which were more efficient than home-made masks. Regardless of mask type, children were less well protected. Outward protection (mask wearing by a mechanical head) was less effective than inward protection (mask wearing by healthy volunteers).
Conclusions/Significance
Any type of general mask use is likely to decrease viral exposure and infection risk on a population level, in spite of imperfect fit and imperfect adherence, personal respirators providing most protection. Masks worn by patients may not offer as great a degree of protection against aerosol transmission.
If you have ever spent any time reading academic literature, you will often notice a trend that the conclusions of the author do not follow from the methodology and data that they provide. You can only realize this by applying your own critical analysis to the paper, and not simply parroting what the author concludes absent of your own thoughts and critiques. As an ex academic, I can attest that academia is full of people who are shockingly less intellectually developed than the plebs of society would like to believe.
- A mountain is not a checkbox to be ticked
- Alpinism and mountaineering are not restricted to 14,000 foot mountains
- Judgment and experience are the two most important pieces of gear you own
- Being honest to yourself and others about your abilities is a characteristic of experienced climbers
- Courage cannot be bought at REI or carried with you in your rucksack
- Alpinism and mountaineering are not restricted to 14,000 foot mountains
- Judgment and experience are the two most important pieces of gear you own
- Being honest to yourself and others about your abilities is a characteristic of experienced climbers
- Courage cannot be bought at REI or carried with you in your rucksack
- Somewhat of a Prick
- Posts: 745
- Joined: 8/4/2012
- 14ers: 58 7
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Re: Masks in the Mountains
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Related.
Cliffs - outdoor masking was always nonsense
Related.
Cliffs - outdoor masking was always nonsense