Masks in the Mountains

Colorado peak questions, condition requests and other info.
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Will you wear a mask on your next 14er ascent?

Yes. I will wear 2 masks until told otherwise.
3
2%
Yes. My mask shows that I care for your health.
13
8%
Yes. I don't know up from down, but it is important to signal virtue.
3
2%
Maybe, depends on what the person in front of me is doing.
14
8%
No. My face is too pretty to hide.
12
7%
No. The mask thing is so 2020.
6
3%
No. I read the science and masks outside are absurd.
111
64%
No. I voted for Trump and I don't think he would approve.
11
6%
 
Total votes: 173
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madbuck
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Re: Masks in the Mountains

Post by madbuck »

crossfitter wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:47 pm
rijaca wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:41 pm I just don't understand why you get all worked up because others are wearing a mask outdoors. Are they giving you $hit for not wearing one? Are you giving them $hit for wearing one?

I'll wear one when when I'm indoors and its required by the business. I'll wear one when it's required by my employer. It's not a big deal. I'm required to wear pants when I'm in public. Damn Gov't.
I don't care if people want to double mask forever, but whenever I see people acting irrationally everywhere, it makes me lose hope that this bulls**t will ever go away. The onslaught of irrationality is just too strong.
...
I just want people to leave me alone and let me choose my own risk.
The "muh rights" and "let me choose" arguments are too simplified when it doesn't consider the context of those effects on others. You know that, though...I'm just saying of your other arguments though have more merit (IMHO, despite having approached this with initially different attitudes), so "Let me choose whatever I want" is arguably as oversimplified aas "Just wear the mask even if it's dumb."

I'm in the public health/medical research arena, and have even researched cardiovascular risk in patients hospitalized with acute COVID (Summary: the proteomic biomarker profile we observe is extreme and different than any other plasma samples I've observed). So I was initially frustrated with public denial and lack of political leadership at the top last year.

However, I had discussed with my wife that public health needs to "own" all policy implications and externalities, including mental health burden, job loss, educational delays, increased domestic and other violent crimes, alcoholism, obesity, etc. Relatively small cash infusions don't solve these problems: we need a deeper acknowledgement that it's important for people to have a reasonable path forward to partial and then complete normalcy.

In the example here, we should be stating more emphatically that not only is outdoor exercise safe, but the known benefits for physical and mental health far outweigh a risk which has not been observed or established in transmission from transient encounters of mostly healthy people outdoors -- especially in a context where nearly everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated. And while people can and should be able to wear a mask outside if they want, I totally get why it can be off-putting to see: there's that slight but non-zero burden of wondering if you should put your mask up, or if someone is going to get mad or stressed out, or even just a reminder of the pandemic itself when all you want to do is cruise around in nature and take a break -- all in the context of the fact that you might be vaccinated and healthy and no risk to anyone. So yeah, I've made choices not to hike or run on fav trails in Boulder because it's less stressful to run in Loveland/Fort Collins; last year I ran roads that were right next to bike paths for the same reason (ironically increasing my risk of getting mowed down by a car).

So let's acknowledge these issues (however big or small) so we can think in the bigger context of actually promoting people to be healthy.
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Re: Masks in the Mountains

Post by madbuck »

Additionally, instead of continuing fear and uncertainty among very positive declines in cases, severity, and deaths, we should celebrate our progress. Now, far be it from me to be generally sympathetic towards millennials, but if we were honest, we should acknowledge that the social burden of managing this disease (as opposed to the disease itself) has been overwhelmingly toward younger and healthier folk. After the initial wave, once we understood things better, younger folks have made all the sacrifices, but their educational and job experiences have suffered, all in a context of it being already difficult to buy a house, start a family, etc. My little kids have been home or wearing masks for half of their education now, with mixed messages of warning them about the virus despite little risk to them, and now "just kidding you can't get a vaccine anyway," but my sympathies lie more with teenagers/younger adults getting jacked at a critical time in their lives.
Older folks have been relatively OK with remote working, retirement fund appreciation, better health insurance, and food delivered to their house (by the same young people).

Instead of vilifying vaccine hesitancy among the younger generation, maybe it would help to step back and acknowledge those sacrifices.
And celebrate those things that are healthy and super-safe, like hiking in the mountains.
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Re: Masks in the Mountains

Post by crossfitter »

madbuck wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:29 pm
The "muh rights" and "let me choose" arguments are too simplified when it doesn't consider the context of those effects on others. You know that, though...I'm just saying of your other arguments though have more merit (IMHO, despite having approached this with initially different attitudes), so "Let me choose whatever I want" is arguably as oversimplified aas "Just wear the mask even if it's dumb."

I'm in the public health/medical research arena, and have even researched cardiovascular risk in patients hospitalized with acute COVID (Summary: the proteomic biomarker profile we observe is extreme and different than any other plasma samples I've observed). So I was initially frustrated with public denial and lack of political leadership at the top last year.

However, I had discussed with my wife that public health needs to "own" all policy implications and externalities, including mental health burden, job loss, educational delays, increased domestic and other violent crimes, alcoholism, obesity, etc. Relatively small cash infusions don't solve these problems: we need a deeper acknowledgement that it's important for people to have a reasonable path forward to partial and then complete normalcy.

In the example here, we should be stating more emphatically that not only is outdoor exercise safe, but the known benefits for physical and mental health far outweigh a risk which has not been observed or established in transmission from transient encounters of mostly healthy people outdoors -- especially in a context where nearly everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated. And while people can and should be able to wear a mask outside if they want, I totally get why it can be off-putting to see: there's that slight but non-zero burden of wondering if you should put your mask up, or if someone is going to get mad or stressed out, or even just a reminder of the pandemic itself when all you want to do is cruise around in nature and take a break -- all in the context of the fact that you might be vaccinated and healthy and no risk to anyone. So yeah, I've made choices not to hike or run on fav trails in Boulder because it's less stressful to run in Loveland/Fort Collins; last year I ran roads that were right next to bike paths for the same reason (ironically increasing my risk of getting mowed down by a car).

So let's acknowledge these issues (however big or small) so we can think in the bigger context of actually promoting people to be healthy.
I pretty much agree with everything you have written above, particularly in recognizing the sacrifices younger generations have been forced to make, and in that there has been next to no effort to balance out the negative externalities of covid restriction policies (and I firmly believe that the bill has yet to come due on this front).

I have been consistent in my stance that the game was different last spring when overwhelming the hospitals appeared to be a very real threat. In this context, even people who have done their best to avoid the virus lose, and the catastrophic risk warranted the caution at the time. I voluntarily stayed home without complaint even before the official lockdown orders came down, because it looked like the real deal at the time.

What pisses me off is that we never took a step back once we realized the virus was not nearly as deadly as originally thought, and hospitals being at risk for systemic collapse has not been a real threat for over a year now. If they were, we never would have dismantled all of the field hospitals. Once the systemic collapse risk was mitigated, it was time to let people make their own choices and weigh the downsides of heavy-handed government intervention for an unsubstantiated threat. We have been operating on a paradigm of collective responsibility long past this being a collective problem. Once true PPE became readily available (if you all recall, cloth masks were always a 'better than nothing' stopgap when dealing with PPE shortages, rather than a cure in itself), it ceased being a collective problem and should have been a personal choice.
Last edited by crossfitter on Thu May 13, 2021 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- A mountain is not a checkbox to be ticked
- Alpinism and mountaineering are not restricted to 14,000 foot mountains
- Judgment and experience are the two most important pieces of gear you own
- Being honest to yourself and others about your abilities is a characteristic of experienced climbers
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Re: Masks in the Mountains

Post by 12ersRule »

madbuck wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:40 pm Additionally, instead of continuing fear and uncertainty among very positive declines in cases, severity, and deaths, we should celebrate our progress. Now, far be it from me to be generally sympathetic towards millennials, but if we were honest, we should acknowledge that the social burden of managing this disease (as opposed to the disease itself) has been overwhelmingly toward younger and healthier folk. After the initial wave, once we understood things better, younger folks have made all the sacrifices, but their educational and job experiences have suffered, all in a context of it being already difficult to buy a house, start a family, etc. My little kids have been home or wearing masks for half of their education now, with mixed messages of warning them about the virus despite little risk to them, and now "just kidding you can't get a vaccine anyway," but my sympathies lie more with teenagers/younger adults getting jacked.
Older folks have been relatively OK with remote working, retirement fund appreciation, better health insurance, and food delivered to their house (by the same young people).

Instead of vilifying vaccine hesitancy among the younger generation, maybe it would help to step back and acknowledge those sacrifices.
And celebrate those things that are healthy and super-safe, like hiking in the mountains.

Solid post.


It's going to be an awkward transition back to normalcy.

I tried to go back to work for a few days last week, just for a change of pace and to help out. Management wants people back but they're definitely sending mixed messages. If we choose to go to the office, we're required to wear masks at our desks (even though no one sits within 20 feet of me and those that do are very likely already vaccinated. But we're not allowed to ask anyone if they're vaccinated or not.)

And then there is this fearmongering gem at the water fountain. I risked it anyway.
cootiesFountain.PNG
cootiesFountain.PNG (279.38 KiB) Viewed 2283 times
ker0uac
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Re: Masks in the Mountains

Post by ker0uac »

madbuck wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:29 pm
However, I had discussed with my wife that public health needs to "own" all policy implications and externalities, including mental health burden, job loss, educational delays, increased domestic and other violent crimes, alcoholism, obesity, etc. Relatively small cash infusions don't solve these problems: we need a deeper acknowledgement that it's important for people to have a reasonable path forward to partial and then complete normalcy.
=D> yea spot on
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Re: Masks in the Mountains

Post by Somewhat of a Prick »

12ersRule wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:49 pm
madbuck wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:40 pm Additionally, instead of continuing fear and uncertainty among very positive declines in cases, severity, and deaths, we should celebrate our progress. Now, far be it from me to be generally sympathetic towards millennials, but if we were honest, we should acknowledge that the social burden of managing this disease (as opposed to the disease itself) has been overwhelmingly toward younger and healthier folk. After the initial wave, once we understood things better, younger folks have made all the sacrifices, but their educational and job experiences have suffered, all in a context of it being already difficult to buy a house, start a family, etc. My little kids have been home or wearing masks for half of their education now, with mixed messages of warning them about the virus despite little risk to them, and now "just kidding you can't get a vaccine anyway," but my sympathies lie more with teenagers/younger adults getting jacked.
Older folks have been relatively OK with remote working, retirement fund appreciation, better health insurance, and food delivered to their house (by the same young people).

Instead of vilifying vaccine hesitancy among the younger generation, maybe it would help to step back and acknowledge those sacrifices.
And celebrate those things that are healthy and super-safe, like hiking in the mountains.

Solid post.


It's going to be an awkward transition back to normalcy.

I tried to go back to work for a few days last week, just for a change of pace and to help out. Management wants people back but they're definitely sending mixed messages. If we choose to go to the office, we're required to wear masks at our desks (even though no one sits within 20 feet of me and those that do are very likely already vaccinated. But we're not allowed to ask anyone if they're vaccinated or not.)

And then there is this fearmongering gem at the water fountain. I risked it anyway.

cootiesFountain.PNG
What on earth...lol


Reminds me of the pull-up bars at wash park. They are removed. I wonder how many lives that saved? Probably the same amount as that sign on your drinking fountain.

Science!
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Re: Masks in the Mountains

Post by cedica »

ker0uac wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:48 am https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpspr ... ae6nv5.jpg
Spot the hypocrisy
Can we go back just to quickly clarify this post, please? Are you suggesting that Gandalf's visit to Bilbo at his home was hypocrisy?
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Re: Masks in the Mountains

Post by ker0uac »

cedica wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:34 pm
ker0uac wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:48 am https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpspr ... ae6nv5.jpg
Spot the hypocrisy
Can we go back just to quickly clarify this post, please? Are you suggesting that Gandalf's visit to Bilbo at his home was hypocrisy?
No, go back to my post and read everything I wrote under the picture
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Re: Masks in the Mountains

Post by Dave B »

XterraRob wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:07 pm
Dave B wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:55 pmThose were elected officials pushing those actions, this conversation is about blasting non-elected employees at federal agencies tasked with public health. Please tell me you're capable of understanding the difference? Otherwise we need to start criticizing Iraq and Afghanistan veterans for those wars as well.
Hell, good ol' Bob Mueller, head of the FBI at the time, told our Legislature that he believed Iraq had WMDs to help sell the war effort. The State Department was on board, everyone had a job to sell it. These, all non-elected government officials.

And the media was just as complicit, was it not a mainstream phenomenon? What were the highlight/news reels like? We can revisit that.

Don't think the government won't leverage all of its power & influence when it wants to move in a certain direction, that's disrespectful to history.
I actually don't disagree with a thing you said. However, the idea that the government moved en masse to promote fear mongering about covid under the Trump administration takes a substantial and willing suspension of disbelief. Agency heads, which include the CDC and FBI, are appointed by the president and work at his behest. Every other government employee is in the Executive branch and technically works at the behest of the president.

As we all know, Trump was one of the most outspoken critics of Covid being a severe problem. He was also always so proud of himself for firing his appointees, of which he has every right to do.

Now, let's put those last two pieces of information together, combine that with the fact that the majority of the pandemic responses at the government level occurred under his administration, and ask ourselves if it is really possible that the entire Executive branch somehow managed to side-step the desires of the president? This was the same president who demands unwavering loyalty, has a crippling persecution complex, and the impulse control of a toddler.

I mean, you may believe that's possible, but I don't. It defies reality, but I also don't believe that Hilary Clinton ran child sex-slave rings out of pizza parlor basements, so I guess I'm pretty biased.
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Re: Masks in the Mountains

Post by crossfitter »

Dave B wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:06 pm
I actually don't disagree with a thing you said. However, the idea that the government moved en masse to promote fear mongering about covid under the Trump administration takes a substantial and willing suspension of disbelief. Agency heads, which include the CDC and FBI, are appointed by the president and work at his behest. Every other government employee is in the Executive branch and technically works at the behest of the president.

As we all know, Trump was one of the most outspoken critics of Covid being a severe problem. He was also always so proud of himself for firing his appointees, of which he has every right to do.

Now, let's put those last two pieces of information together, combine that with the fact that the majority of the pandemic responses at the government level occurred under his administration, and ask ourselves if it is really possible that the entire Executive branch somehow managed to side-step the desires of the president? This was the same president who demands unwavering loyalty, has a crippling persecution complex, and the impulse control of a toddler.

I mean, you may believe that's possible, but I don't. It defies reality, but I also don't believe that Hilary Clinton ran child sex-slave rings out of pizza parlor basements, so I guess I'm pretty biased.
My take on what happened is that the media got ahold of covid and quickly made it their favorite chew toy for two reasons: 1) everything scary gets eyeballs and clicks and 2) they really, really, really hate Trump and saw covid as their one opportunity to get rid of him by torpedoing the economy, which was his golden goose issue considering that impeachment I and impeachment II both failed to get the job done.

The government is much less like west wing than many would like to believe, and a lot more like house of cards/game of thrones. Everyone has their own little games, schemes, and power plays, and virtually all of them are flags in the wind to bow to public pressure. None of them have any particular loyalty to their superiors, beyond what little utilitarian 'loyalty' might help them jump the ladder to more power.

So you have a freaked out public, a media stoking the flames as furiously as they can manage, and sea of power-grubbing bean counters each with the own little power plays, half of whom hate trump and want him gone anyway. It's politically popular to be tough on ̶c̶r̶i̶m̶e̶ covid, half of the government wants trump gone and the other half want to keep him at arms length, so they all happily go along letting the loudest fear mongers drive.

A year later, we are trying to dig our way out of the fear-hole that the media has dug us, but a sizeable fraction of the population is so traumatized with germ-induced PTSD that they want to stay in their foxholes forever until someone "in charge" says it's safe. Meanwhile, covid becomes the favorite excuse for the laziest segments of the population to stay home, collect unemployment, half ass their jobs, and give the government every excuse in the book to spend more money to line the pockets of their friends and pretend that they are "helping"
- A mountain is not a checkbox to be ticked
- Alpinism and mountaineering are not restricted to 14,000 foot mountains
- Judgment and experience are the two most important pieces of gear you own
- Being honest to yourself and others about your abilities is a characteristic of experienced climbers
- Courage cannot be bought at REI or carried with you in your rucksack

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Re: Masks in the Mountains

Post by pvnisher »

So now that the CDC says if you're vaccinated you don't need to wear a mask or distance, indoors or outdoors, how long are we going to keep having the masks on trails debate?

Or is it going to devolve into a "show me your papers" exercise to go into a restaurant?

My own workplace has had it's share of ridiculous rules. The machine shop was off limits to everyone except machinists, for fear that if someone got sick they'd have to disassemble the machines to clean them.
Meanwhile the machinists could socialize anywhere in the building, with anyone,, and I think the likelihood of anyone getting covid from the drill press was pretty low. Not to mention that there was never any evidence we'd have to disassemble the shop even if someone popped positive.
Nonetheless, that rule stood for well over a year.

The "no admittance" sign finally came down last week, and now I wonder when the mask mandate will go away. Hopefully not another year...
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Re: Masks in the Mountains

Post by XterraRob »

Dave B wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:06 pm I actually don't disagree with a thing you said. However, the idea that the government moved en masse to promote fear mongering about covid under the Trump administration takes a substantial and willing suspension of disbelief. Agency heads, which include the CDC and FBI, are appointed by the president and work at his behest. Every other government employee is in the Executive branch and technically works at the behest of the president.

As we all know, Trump was one of the most outspoken critics of Covid being a severe problem. He was also always so proud of himself for firing his appointees, of which he has every right to do.

Now, let's put those last two pieces of information together, combine that with the fact that the majority of the pandemic responses at the government level occurred under his administration, and ask ourselves if it is really possible that the entire Executive branch somehow managed to side-step the desires of the president? This was the same president who demands unwavering loyalty, has a crippling persecution complex, and the impulse control of a toddler.

I mean, you may believe that's possible, but I don't. It defies reality, but I also don't believe that Hilary Clinton ran child sex-slave rings out of pizza parlor basements, so I guess I'm pretty biased.
When someone is trying to argue that the government as a whole should not be trusted, leveraging that this is something that extends beyond any one political party and focuses on the government as a single entity drive by human corruption (money, greed, & power), what constructive basis exists to start politicizing it as a counter-point? Elevate your mind David. This is beyond Trump, beyond Hillary, this is taking a look at an example in our past when our government has shown itself to take a malignant form for a nefarious purpose. Let me tell you, it hasn't changed much since then. And it wasn't much different before that either. Did you know countless cities became helpless victims to the effects of nuclear fall out from the numerous nuclear tests conducted in the Southwest? Some cities were never told what happened, but cancer rates would spike and the government would send in doctors and researchers to document the effects.
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