Running a peak: What it takes

Colorado peak questions, condition requests and other info.
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Re: Running a peak: What it takes

Post by RETEP 1 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:42 am

Bean wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:57 am
Back when I ran a lot I did T+G a couple times from I-70 in a little under 3:30, car to top of Torreys was right about 1:45 so ~16-17min/mi pace, summer TH to TH in 2:20 including a 2-3 min break on each summit, overall average pace just a hair over 14min/mi.

Do I get to check the box for those? It was the weekend but I started well before sunrise.
I’m not gonna be in the “has to meet a certain pace camp” I say check that box. When I was running the WMM and I had to quialify for Boston, Chicago, New York; I would get grouchy at the folks buying their way in. By the time I hit London, all you could do was buy your way in and i realized it would’ve been sad for a min/mi to keep someone from accomplishing a goal. My brother ran Denver marathon in 5:59 and I know he says he “ran it”.
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Re: Running a peak: What it takes

Post by RETEP 1 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:54 am

jmanner wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:41 am
pizza-sandwich wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:34 am
this is a weird argument.

call it running if you’re pushing your maximum sustainable pace with as much actual and definable running as possible. if your goal is to run every section or grade you can, while power hiking the rest, that’s a run in my book.

bottom line: maximized running minimized hiking qualifies as a run.
I’ve literally gotten my heart into zone 4 and 5 power hiking at 13,000+ feet. But max effort during a workout is not running. Call it what YOU want, but claiming to have “run” every 14er while putting down 20-40 minute miles as an average isn’t going to persuade someone like me that’s a life long runner. If you want to call it a trail run, trail run, if you want to go up Capitol, probably need to be a lot fitter or just accept that you ran the approach and then hiked and scrambled the rest.
This is an interesting argument. I would think it goes without saying that you’re not running some of the climbing features on peaks, and that those features dramatically decreased your overall min/mi. Maybe no one is really running in the mountains, cause Anton didn’t just gallop down the downclimb off of LB.
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Re: Running a peak: What it takes

Post by pizza-sandwich » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:11 am

jmanner wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:41 am
pizza-sandwich wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:34 am
this is a weird argument.

call it running if you’re pushing your maximum sustainable pace with as much actual and definable running as possible. if your goal is to run every section or grade you can, while power hiking the rest, that’s a run in my book.

bottom line: maximized running minimized hiking qualifies as a run.
I’ve literally gotten my heart into zone 4 and 5 power hiking at 13,000+ feet. But max effort during a workout is not running. Call it what YOU want, but claiming to have “run” every 14er while putting down 20-40 minute miles as an average isn’t going to persuade someone like me that’s a life long runner. If you want to call it a trail run, trail run, if you want to go up Capitol, probably need to be a lot fitter or just accept that you ran the approach and then hiked and scrambled the rest.
okay, so using your frameworks here, is it a trad route if it has bolted anchors? or a ski decent if you have to rap a cliff? and what if you ran an entire approach and summit push, but had to solo 10m of 5.9? it also completely removes anyone from saying they ran a trail 100—pros included—because they power hiked steeper than steep sections, even if they averaged 10 minute miles.

like i said it’s a weird argument to be having. if you’re running everything you can and pushing the highest pace possible on slopes you can’t physically or physiologically run, it’s a run.
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Re: Running a peak: What it takes

Post by jmanner » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:32 am

I don’t think bringing up ski descents and trad climbs is going to do anything but blow this up into even more silliness.

I’ll give you an example though, Bear Peak from NCAR, one of, if not my favorite trail run, 11 miles of which about I can keep my running form up for about 10.3-10.6 miles of that distance. There’s a little fun class 3 scramble up and down from the summit, I’ll average 9:45-11 minute pace on that run(not looking up what I’ve done it in). That’s a great trail run to me you run it, it’s involves some good steep power hiking, fun little scramble at the end before you blast it back to the car. Same exactly vert as Bierstadt. Probably the younger Devils Minion guys and gals could run it all, but I’m not fit enough nor really care about being that much fitter. Compare that to three 13ers I did in summer 2020, I ran maybe 30% of the total time the rest was zone 4(occasional
mouth breathing zone 5) power hiking with some easy trotting down tundra. Average pace on those is maybe 14-18 min miles. It’s just not the same activity. Reason to run the flats is because it’s fun and it gets it done quicker, not for bragging rights. Or that’s my attitude. If folks want to call anything with 30minute miles or less a “run” go for it, but I won’t count that in my annual running miles.
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Re: Running a peak: What it takes

Post by aholle88 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:34 am

pizza-sandwich wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:11 am
jmanner wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:41 am
pizza-sandwich wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:34 am
this is a weird argument.

call it running if you’re pushing your maximum sustainable pace with as much actual and definable running as possible. if your goal is to run every section or grade you can, while power hiking the rest, that’s a run in my book.

bottom line: maximized running minimized hiking qualifies as a run.
I’ve literally gotten my heart into zone 4 and 5 power hiking at 13,000+ feet. But max effort during a workout is not running. Call it what YOU want, but claiming to have “run” every 14er while putting down 20-40 minute miles as an average isn’t going to persuade someone like me that’s a life long runner. If you want to call it a trail run, trail run, if you want to go up Capitol, probably need to be a lot fitter or just accept that you ran the approach and then hiked and scrambled the rest.
okay, so using your frameworks here, is it a trad route if it has bolted anchors? or a ski decent if you have to rap a cliff? and what if you ran an entire approach and summit push, but had to solo 10m of 5.9? it also completely removes anyone from saying they ran a trail 100—pros included—because they power hiked steeper than steep sections, even if they averaged 10 minute miles.

like i said it’s a weird argument to be having. if you’re running everything you can and pushing the highest pace possible on slopes you can’t physically or physiologically run, it’s a run.
At the end of the day, it’s all about personal values, integrity, and ethics. If you, yourself, can lay your head down at night and not feel guilt about how you labeled your activity, that’s the only thing that matters. Whether it’s running, hiking, skiing, whatever.

It’s just fun arguing online over semantics, trying to persuade others to believe in your philosophies, and getting others to see different sides to the equation. So can we all just agree to call it adventure running already and end this? :lol:
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Re: Running a peak: What it takes

Post by justiner » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:21 am

bergsteigen wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:00 pm
justiner wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:45 pm
bergsteigen wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:42 pm
Stable ankles. I stopped running peaks after rolling an ankle. Too dangerous.
lol
Last time I rolled my ankle all the way, I broke my leg. :shock: :cry:
How many times have you broken your legs? I thought it was all from skiing - and I thought that was the joke. ('cause you still ski)
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Re: Running a peak: What it takes

Post by RETEP 1 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:37 am

ekalina wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:23 pm
supranihilest wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:53 pm
ekalina wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:38 pm
What footwear do you running folks wear for an outing that requires running+scrambling? I want to run the approaches but bring something that works for the scrambling that comes later, too.
La Sportiva Ultra Raptors if it's low Class 5 scrambling, La Sportiva Bushido II for all other scrambling, and La Sportiva Helios for purely hiking days or mostly hiking days with some Class 3 scrambling.
Nice, I will check these out. Thanks!
I’ve been in La Sportiva Akashas for the last few years...they make a really good shoe👍
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Re: Running a peak: What it takes

Post by pizza-sandwich » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:55 am

aholle88 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:34 am
pizza-sandwich wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:11 am
jmanner wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:41 am


I’ve literally gotten my heart into zone 4 and 5 power hiking at 13,000+ feet. But max effort during a workout is not running. Call it what YOU want, but claiming to have “run” every 14er while putting down 20-40 minute miles as an average isn’t going to persuade someone like me that’s a life long runner. If you want to call it a trail run, trail run, if you want to go up Capitol, probably need to be a lot fitter or just accept that you ran the approach and then hiked and scrambled the rest.
okay, so using your frameworks here, is it a trad route if it has bolted anchors? or a ski decent if you have to rap a cliff? and what if you ran an entire approach and summit push, but had to solo 10m of 5.9? it also completely removes anyone from saying they ran a trail 100—pros included—because they power hiked steeper than steep sections, even if they averaged 10 minute miles.

like i said it’s a weird argument to be having. if you’re running everything you can and pushing the highest pace possible on slopes you can’t physically or physiologically run, it’s a run.
At the end of the day, it’s all about personal values, integrity, and ethics. If you, yourself, can lay your head down at night and not feel guilt about how you labeled your activity, that’s the only thing that matters. Whether it’s running, hiking, skiing, whatever.

It’s just fun arguing online over semantics, trying to persuade others to believe in your philosophies, and getting others to see different sides to the equation. So can we all just agree to call it adventure running already and end this? :lol:
no no no this is the internet where the stakes are life and death.

we’re going to find out right here and now what running is!
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Re: Running a peak: What it takes

Post by RETEP 1 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:26 am

aholle88 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:34 am
pizza-sandwich wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:11 am
jmanner wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:41 am


I’ve literally gotten my heart into zone 4 and 5 power hiking at 13,000+ feet. But max effort during a workout is not running. Call it what YOU want, but claiming to have “run” every 14er while putting down 20-40 minute miles as an average isn’t going to persuade someone like me that’s a life long runner. If you want to call it a trail run, trail run, if you want to go up Capitol, probably need to be a lot fitter or just accept that you ran the approach and then hiked and scrambled the rest.
okay, so using your frameworks here, is it a trad route if it has bolted anchors? or a ski decent if you have to rap a cliff? and what if you ran an entire approach and summit push, but had to solo 10m of 5.9? it also completely removes anyone from saying they ran a trail 100—pros included—because they power hiked steeper than steep sections, even if they averaged 10 minute miles.

like i said it’s a weird argument to be having. if you’re running everything you can and pushing the highest pace possible on slopes you can’t physically or physiologically run, it’s a run.
At the end of the day, it’s all about personal values, integrity, and ethics. If you, yourself, can lay your head down at night and not feel guilt about how you labeled your activity, that’s the only thing that matters. Whether it’s running, hiking, skiing, whatever.

It’s just fun arguing online over semantics, trying to persuade others to believe in your philosophies, and getting others to see different sides to the equation. So can we all just agree to call it adventure running already and end this? :lol:
I can get on board with adventure running! So start a new thread? 😂😂
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Re: Running a peak: What it takes

Post by dhgold » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:29 pm

My observation is that when it gets into very long distances with lots of vertical, the definition of running becomes very elastic.

I've twice paced the "Leadville 100 Trail Run" (note that the word "run" is in the official title). The first time was for a friend of a friend from out of state. I was supposed to start pacing him at mile 60. I arrived at the rendezvous point well ahead of time, early enough to be there when the first competitors came through. The leaders were moving pretty well, anyone this side of Usain Bolt would call what they were doing running. Since I hadn't done any formal running in years, I had serious concerns about whether I'd be able to keep up the guy I was supposed to pace. It turned out that I needed have worried. Even though my runner was in the top third of competitors when he reached me, he was, no arguing about it, walking. I believe we walked the entire 11 miles that I accompanied him and that it took about three hours to cover that distance. None of the other competitors I saw during that section did much more than walk. No one passed us. We passed one competitor, taking at least an hour to close the 200 yards that he had initially been ahead of us. (As it happened, the guy we passed was one of the famous Tarahumarans from Mexico. They have a running culture. There were several of them in the race that day. They ran in cheap sandals and generally dominated the race. The guy we passed must have been part of their JV.) My competitor ultimately finished the race, I believe in under 24 hours which is considered pretty legit. Still, his average pace was closer to 4MPH than 5 -- a very slow jog.

The second time I paced Leadville was for a friend. I paced him from Winfield to Twin Lakes, about mile 50 to 60. My friend was in the middle of the pack. My friend's plan had been to run the downhills. Early in my segment we were walking a downhill section of road; I asked my friend "shouldn't be we be running this?" and he replied "this isn't downhill". That was it for even considering moving at beyond a walk. There were a lot more competitors around us than the first time I had paced. Occasionally someone near us would jog for a little while but essentially everyone was walking. The section I was on went up Hope pass; I would characterize our pace for that entire section as a comfortable walk. We finished our section but my friend ultimately dropped out at mile 86. Even though he'd done nothing but walk since mile 50 he had still been on pace to make the official finishing time of 30 hours.

I also once worked at an aid station during the Hardrock 100. The station was around mile 70. I was there for several hours, after the leaders had gone through. The entire time I was there, every competitor I saw was walking.
The cutoff time for officially finishing the "Hardrock Hundred Mile Endurance Run" is 48 hours, barely over 2 miles an hour. When I used to run in high school (a long time ago), we were told that anything slower than 8 miles an hour was jogging. An official finisher of that very prestigious race/run has to average barely one-quarter of real running pace.
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Re: Running a peak: What it takes

Post by headsizeburrito » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:20 pm

dhgold wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:29 pm
I also once worked at an aid station during the Hardrock 100. The station was around mile 70. I was there for several hours, after the leaders had gone through. The entire time I was there, every competitor I saw was walking.
They don't call it HardWalk for nothing. :lol:

This is a pointless debate, but I do kind of like the term adventure run. I sometimes log things for myself as "run/hike" when I do some of both even though I'm running when possible. Call it whatever you want. Speed only matters in races and FKTs and the only thing that matters there is overall time, not your specific run/hike ratio or average pace.
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Re: Running a peak: What it takes

Post by bergsteigen » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:53 pm

justiner wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:21 am
bergsteigen wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:00 pm
justiner wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:45 pm


lol
Last time I rolled my ankle all the way, I broke my leg. :shock: :cry:
How many times have you broken your legs? I thought it was all from skiing - and I thought that was the joke. ('cause you still ski)
3 times. The second I was backpacking out after skiing Snowmass & Hagarman and rolled my ankle. Heard the Pop! Thought it was a ligament. Nope. Distal Fibula. Why I won’t wear trail runners on the trail anymore. No matter how strong I make my leg muscles, eventually they tire and ankle rolls happen. Ski boots are a natural ankle brace.
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