Colorado peak questions, condition requests and other info.
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AyeYo wrote:Do people think those aren't real or that they're annoying/an inconvenience because there's a fixed cable there?
Do people think gondolas and cog railways aren't real or that they're annoying/an inconvenience because they allow anyone (who is willing to pay) to reach the summit?
Well, in one case you're actually climbing (more likely traversing) the route, but with a margin of safety. In the other case, you're being shuttled to the destination. Not really comparable. Extra safety doesn't negate effort or technicality. Sitting in a powered cart certainly does.
I guess it all comes down to how you view your time in the mountains. If you see routes as a puzzle and challenge to be solved, then I can see the objection to markers. Of course, then I'll ask you why you use any aids at all or take beta pictures with you. I go to the mountains to enjoy the scenery and for a physical challenge. Added safety margin doesn't detract from either, nor does increased risk add to the physical challenge.
AyeYo - I'm confused. What's your position on via ferratas - are you actually OK with the idea of them being put up just anywhere and everywhere? Why not up Crestone Needle, while we're on the subject?
By the way - in case you actually think there's no controversy or issue with them - ever wonder why there's only ONE in all of Colorado?
Jeez louise. The argument that one arrow on a deadly section of a hard route is going to lead to all kinds of other signs and markings is ridiculous. The "where does it stop?" hand-wringers need to chill out a little bit.
When they painted those dots on the Keyhole route and people still kept falling to their deaths, and then they installed cables, hand rails, ladders, fixed ropes, more signage, a trailhead closer to the top, and an alpine slide to get down, boy that really ruined that route, didn't it?
There are arrows and markings in other places, and somehow it has not led to handrails everywhere. As for the other argument against a marking, I doubt one arrow on a tricky place on a dangerous route is going to lead a bunch of unqualified people to try it who otherwise wouldn't have. "Well, I don't usually like class 4, but there's an arrow in one tricky spot, so I'm going to go for it."
tjmartn1 wrote:Via ferrata! Via ferrata on everything!
YES! Someone is finally agreeing with me! If we can get enough people to contribute hardware (bolts are expensive), I'll go put a via ferrata on Crestone Needle.
Edit: never mind. Just realized that the Crestones are in a wilderness area, I'm not going to bolt a via ferrata with a hand drill, that'll take ages.
Last edited by polar on Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Getting to the bottom, OPTIONAL. Getting to the top, MANDATORY!" - The Wisest Trail Sign
one group supporting position "A" - no markers at all
one group supporting position "B" - markers everywhere
one group supporting position "C" - markers when necessary
Where the meat of the support occurs is usually where the line is drawn. There is always going to be support and counter support for things. It's part of the ying and yang of society when it comes to deciding issues. If there wasn't counter support for something, there'd be no balance. For example, a police force is a counter force to acts that are considered against the best interest of society (to keep it simple).
While some on here may feel one position or another is extreme or doesn't make sense to them, remember it's necessary for the balance of things for there to be two opposing forces. Usually the two side will meet somewhere in the middle.
RIP - M56
Re-introduce Grizzly Bears into the Colorado Wilderness™
tjmartn1 wrote:Via ferrata! Via ferrata on everything!
Jeez louise. The argument that one arrow on a deadly section of a hard route is going to lead to all kinds of other signs and markings is ridiculous.
Nobody made this argument - at least not in the last 2 pages.
Um, how about when you brought up a fixed rope, someone else said "no how about steel cables with fixed bolts"?
That's exactly the argument I'm saying is a poor one.
You can do one small thing without that small thing leading to other larger things everywhere else. You can mark a dangerous move on one route without that meaning that every dangerous spot on every route needs a marking.
I only went down the E/W gulley system, but moved over to the E well before the X-over because those lines looked better. There could be a gaping sinkhole in a street and some would still drive down it if it was the "standard" route. Geologic time includes now. Can't legislate intelligence any more than you can eliminate risk.
"A few hours' mountain climbing make of a rogue and a saint two fairly equal creatures.
Tiredness is the shortest path to equality and fraternity - and sleep finally adds to them liberty."
tjmartn1 wrote:Um, how about when you brought up a fixed rope, someone else said "no how about steel cables with fixed bolts"?
Actually, I didn't (initially) bring up the fixed rope - another posted did (to make HIS point) and I used it as an example of similar types of thinking.
tjmartn1 wrote:You can do one small thing without that small thing leading to other larger things everywhere else. You can mark a dangerous move on one route without that meaning that every dangerous spot on every route needs a marking.
Maybe so. But you seem to be suggesting that even asking the question "where does it stop?" is ridiculous. And I would argue that it's exactly those questions that are, in part, the reason why the slippery slope doesn't happen. Just like the poster above said - it's the counter-pressure from each side that allows a compromise to be reached, and a "line" to be established.
All this (mostly irrelevant) stuff about mining roads and ropes and via ferratas and GPS devices and gondolas almost makes it sound like this conversation is taking place in a vacuum. As if it's just a matter of everyone's individual opinion or philosophy, and that there is no established tradition or consensus associated with these things.
But that's not exactly true. There IS such a thing as tradition and consensus. Arguing without realizing this, or without understanding what it is, is arguing without any context, and results in endless digressions and circular arguments (to which I fully acknowledge my contribution), and ultimately doesn't get us any closer to a consensus, or even to understanding the real issue at hand.
Now - people are free to correct or contradict me as needed, but in my understanding, the consensus/tradition with respect to the topics we're talking about is roughly as follows:
-Permanent signs are associated with well-established, maintained hiking trails
-Paint blazes (or arrows or whatever) are associated with hiking trails that follow rocky, difficult terrain where an existing path isn't always visible and where getting off route could get you into trouble. However, this is still a hiking trail - not a mountaineering or climbing route. There are some extremely rare exceptions, the most obvious one being the Keyhole on Longs with its bulls-eyes, but it should be noted, as a previous poster has pointed out, that those bulls-eyes were NOT put up by the NPS and are not maintained by it, and indeed are only left there as a historic relic. In any case, it's generally recognized that the Keyhole blazes are a huge exception and that, in many ways, given the sheer popularity and relative ease of this route it IS pretty much an established hiking trail at this point.
-There are a couple of less-frequent types of markings that are also used for "official" trails or routes, but when there is something unusual about the route. For instance, bright-colored tape on branches is often used to mark a temporary detour. "Perma-wands" or long poles are occasionally used to designate "official" winter routes that are considered safe from winter-specific hazards such as avalanches, etc. Blue diamonds on small reflector-like signs attached to trees are used to mark winter routes that are part of a specific system of winter routes and huts. And so forth.
-Cairns are more of a gray area. They are used both for marking official hiking trails (in a similar way to blazes), but are also common on both mountaineering and even technical climbing routes - sometimes to just mark a route, sometimes to mark a specific location, sometimes as a warning, and sometimes for no good reason at all. However, the key difference between cairns used in the first context (as a way to mark an official, maintained hiking trail) and the latter (mountaineering or climbing routes), is that in the case of the latter, people don't really rely on them or assume that they are always correct, or will always be there, or be visible. It is (or, at least, should be!) well-understood that a cairn - to the extent that it's used as a navigational aid - is always only ONE of several clues telling you that you might be at Point X. As in, "OK, I'm looking at my GPS and it says I'm here; my altimeter says I'm at 13,265' - seems close to what the description says; according to my map there should be this ridge to the right and...yep, sure enough, there it is...and, oh, hey, there's a cairn! I must be on route!" That kind of thing. It's critical that those folks arguing for a permanent marking as an exception somewhere (and, by now, I hope people understand that yes, this is an EXCEPTION) understand this! And that anyone attempting the same route after said exception has been made, also understands that the exact same thing still applies to the entire route INCLUDING (perhaps even more so) to the critical area!
-Lastly, there are temporary markers, like wands or bandanas pinned to a rock, or arrows made of sticks or rocks, that are only intended to help a specific party get back to where they were, and are removed once the party returns to the location. Obviously, these are not to be relied upon by anyone except the party that left the marker (and even then, only with the same caveat as described above in regards to cairns).
None of this should seem particularly controversial or difficult to understand if we're talking about the outdoor community as a whole. However, when it comes to 14er-land, it's well-known that the lines between hiking trails and mountaineering routes (which have been a key point of this whole spiel) are often blurred. Maybe this is where we need to start - before even going into what's is acceptable and what isn't? Acceptable for what? I get the sense that there's far from a clear consensus on this!
Last edited by AlexeyD on Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:20 pm, edited 5 times in total.
tjmartn1 wrote:Via ferrata! Via ferrata on everything!
Jeez louise. The argument that one arrow on a deadly section of a hard route is going to lead to all kinds of other signs and markings is ridiculous. The "where does it stop?" hand-wringers need to chill out a little bit.
When they painted those dots on the Keyhole route and people still kept falling to their deaths, and then they installed cables, hand rails, ladders, fixed ropes, more signage, a trailhead closer to the top, and an alpine slide to get down, boy that really ruined that route, didn't it?
There are arrows and markings in other places, and somehow it has not led to handrails everywhere. As for the other argument against a marking, I doubt one arrow on a tricky place on a dangerous route is going to lead a bunch of unqualified people to try it who otherwise wouldn't have. "Well, I don't usually like class 4, but there's an arrow in one tricky spot, so I'm going to go for it."
tjmartn1 wrote:
When they painted those dots on the Keyhole route and people still kept falling to their deaths, and then they installed cables, hand rails, ladders, fixed ropes, more signage, a trailhead closer to the top, and an alpine slide to get down, boy that really ruined that route, didn't it?
