Poll: Rank the Colorado 14ers

Colorado peak questions, condition requests and other info.
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Ed_Groves
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Re: Rank ALL the 14ers from Hardest to Easiest!

Post by Ed_Groves »

CheapCigarMan wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:55 am
Jorts wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:04 am An aggregation of a large sample of opinions based on somewhat arbitrary criteria would actually be insightful. That’s crowdsourcing.
+1
This is a very true statement, and I think a valid point to this conversation.

Besides, why limit ourselves with just one report / rating / scale or just one way of thinking?
Why not a report or a scale that considers different perspectives?
I agree as well. If a valid sample of those who have completed the 14ers is obtained, I think this will be a useful list, especially for those still contemplating doing them all. Of course there will be differences of opinion, but in the end it is probable that each person's list will end up with similar peaks listed as the top five most difficult but just in different order. The same would apply to the easier end of the scale. The probability is high that there would be a significant number of us who would have peaks like Mt Sherman, Gray's Peak, and Bross in our easiest five to seven peaks.
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mikefromcraig
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Re: Rank ALL the 14ers from Hardest to Easiest!

Post by mikefromcraig »

Jorts wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:04 am An aggregation of a large sample of opinions based on somewhat arbitrary criteria would actually be insightful. That’s crowdsourcing.

Some simply can’t summit Sunlight because of the crux. Or others are overly gripped by exposure. Some people don’t do sustained 3rd cl so well. Or they find navigating difficult terrain after a long approach to be overly taxing. Or their route finding sucks so if it isn’t straightforward they get flustered. Point is, 1 person’s opinion is useless, but hundreds of opinions pared down to a statistical conclusion has value.
You asserted that there's value but what is the value?

If someone interprets "difficulty" as the most difficult crux, but the majority of people who took the survey interpret it as overall physical exertion, then when the first person checks the end results (thinking he's seeing a ranking based on the crux) he's going to be misinformed. This is worse than just being ignorant on the matter and could be dangerous.
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Re: Rank ALL the 14ers from Hardest to Easiest!

Post by CheapCigarMan »

mikefromcraig wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:05 pm
Jorts wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:04 am An aggregation of a large sample of opinions based on somewhat arbitrary criteria would actually be insightful. That’s crowdsourcing.

Some simply can’t summit Sunlight because of the crux. Or others are overly gripped by exposure. Some people don’t do sustained 3rd cl so well. Or they find navigating difficult terrain after a long approach to be overly taxing. Or their route finding sucks so if it isn’t straightforward they get flustered. Point is, 1 person’s opinion is useless, but hundreds of opinions pared down to a statistical conclusion has value.
You asserted that there's value but what is the value?

If someone interprets "difficulty" as the most difficult crux, but the majority of people who took the survey interpret it as overall physical exertion, then when the first person checks the end results (thinking he's seeing a ranking based on the crux) he's going to be misinformed. This is worse than just being ignorant on the matter and could be dangerous.
Possible but not plausible. When asked which are the hardest peaks IMO people generally think in terms of overall experience. Versus being asked what Class is that route ranked or did that route have loose or stable rock or how much exposure or how long was the approach, etc.? This site does a good job providing that hard data.

Have to agree with Ed_Groves in that I think the results will be more of groupings. The value would provide a basic / general idea of overall difficulty when progressing to "harder" peaks. This scale wouldn't be about precision. Peak A is definitely ranked #28 and Peak B is definitely ranked #29. Instead it's more about these Peaks are in the bottom 10 or so and these are in the top 10 or so and everything else are pretty similar somewhere in between. We get three or four or so different groupings. This is more about comparing one against the others. As stated over and over by others here it's subjective. There won't be a definite answer because of so many factors, considerations, and variables. But as a group (crowdsourcing) there would be a general consensus in grouping Peaks with the value of helping others progress.
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Re: Rank ALL the 14ers from Hardest to Easiest!

Post by Jorts »

mikefromcraig wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:05 pm You asserted that there's value but what is the value?

If someone interprets "difficulty" as the most difficult crux, but the majority of people who took the survey interpret it as overall physical exertion, then when the first person checks the end results (thinking he's seeing a ranking based on the crux) he's going to be misinformed. This is worse than just being ignorant on the matter and could be dangerous.
Dangerous? If you see a 3rd class peak jump a 4th class peak on a list that has been compiled by the collective opinions of hundreds, it would nudge you to look more closely at the route instead of just going for it cause it's 3rd and not 4th.

The classification of a route is based on the crux move, irrespective of exposure or how sustained the sequence of moves is, or how dirty the sequence is or some other nuance I can't think of.

A good example is the Crestone Traverse. It's ranked low 5th because of a bulge that has to be navigated. But that bulge isn't really exposed at all. You can sit there and fail at it repeatedly without risking life and limb. But the 4th class headwall is sustained, exposed and is considered by most to be the crux of the route... not the 5.easy bulge. Cooper has a 4th class route that is graded lower than the bulge route, but I’d say Cooper’s 4th class route is more dangerous than the 5th class bulge route because of the sustained 4th class climbing requiring good route finding with lethal exposure along the way. I’m sure people who opted for Cooper’s route instead of the route Bill has felt “misinformed”.

Having a sizable community rank peaks based on perceived difficulty would have useful patterns emerge. Comparing my opinion with a few other people's opinions?... worthless.
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Re: Rank ALL the 14ers from Hardest to Easiest!

Post by CheapCigarMan »

Jorts wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:38 pm
mikefromcraig wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:05 pm You asserted that there's value but what is the value?

If someone interprets "difficulty" as the most difficult crux, but the majority of people who took the survey interpret it as overall physical exertion, then when the first person checks the end results (thinking he's seeing a ranking based on the crux) he's going to be misinformed. This is worse than just being ignorant on the matter and could be dangerous.
Having a sizable community rank peaks based on perceived difficulty would have useful patterns emerge. Comparing my opinion with a few other people's opinions?... worthless.
Again, +1
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Re: Rank ALL the 14ers from Hardest to Easiest!

Post by mikefromcraig »

CheapCigarMan wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:04 pm
Jorts wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:38 pm
mikefromcraig wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:05 pm You asserted that there's value but what is the value?

If someone interprets "difficulty" as the most difficult crux, but the majority of people who took the survey interpret it as overall physical exertion, then when the first person checks the end results (thinking he's seeing a ranking based on the crux) he's going to be misinformed. This is worse than just being ignorant on the matter and could be dangerous.
Having a sizable community rank peaks based on perceived difficulty would have useful patterns emerge. Comparing my opinion with a few other people's opinions?... worthless.
Again, +1
So to summarize, someone asserted it has value, I asked what the value was, and the response was "useful patterns will emerge."
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Re: Rank ALL the 14ers from Hardest to Easiest!

Post by seano »

Jorts wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:38 pm
mikefromcraig wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:05 pm You asserted that there's value but what is the value?

If someone interprets "difficulty" as the most difficult crux, but the majority of people who took the survey interpret it as overall physical exertion, then when the first person checks the end results (thinking he's seeing a ranking based on the crux) he's going to be misinformed. This is worse than just being ignorant on the matter and could be dangerous.
Dangerous? If you see a 3rd class peak jump a 4th class peak on a list that has been compiled by the collective opinions of hundreds, it would nudge you to look more closely at the route instead of just going for it cause it's 3rd and not 4th.

The classification of a route is based on the crux move, irrespective of exposure or how sustained the sequence of moves is, or how dirty the sequence is or some other nuance I can't think of.

A good example is the Crestone Traverse. It's ranked low 5th because of a bulge that has to be navigated. But that bulge isn't really exposed at all. You can sit there and fail at it repeatedly without risking life and limb. But the 4th class headwall is sustained, exposed and is considered by most to be the crux of the route... not the 5.easy bulge. Cooper has a 4th class route that is graded lower than the bulge route, but I’d say Cooper’s 4th class route is more dangerous than the 5th class bulge route because of the sustained 4th class climbing requiring good route finding with lethal exposure along the way. I’m sure people who opted for Cooper’s route instead of the route Bill has felt “misinformed”.

Having a sizable community rank peaks based on perceived difficulty would have useful patterns emerge. Comparing my opinion with a few other people's opinions?... worthless.
+1

Think of the community grouping more like French alpine grades, which capture a necessarily-squishy "overall difficulty." This can often be more useful than YDS class (hardest single move) and Roman numeral (length) grades. The YDS Roman grades were originally intended to be like the French grades, but no one uses them that way.
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Re: Rank ALL the 14ers from Hardest to Easiest!

Post by Jorts »

mikefromcraig wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:13 am So to summarize, someone asserted it has value, I asked what the value was, and the response was "useful patterns will emerge."
Are you just trolling me now? I said a lot more than that to illustrate my point.
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Re: Rank ALL the 14ers from Hardest to Easiest!

Post by CheapCigarMan »

mikefromcraig wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:13 am
CheapCigarMan wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:04 pm
Jorts wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:38 pm

Having a sizable community rank peaks based on perceived difficulty would have useful patterns emerge. Comparing my opinion with a few other people's opinions?... worthless.
Again, +1
So to summarize, someone asserted it has value, I asked what the value was, and the response was "useful patterns will emerge."
I'll restate it for you here again, "The value would provide a basic / general idea of overall difficulty when progressing to "harder" peaks. This scale wouldn't be about precision. Peak A is definitely ranked #28 and Peak B is definitely ranked #29. Instead it's more about these Peaks are in the bottom 10 or so and these are in the top 10 or so and everything else are pretty similar somewhere in between. We get three or four or so different groupings. This is more about comparing one against the others. As stated over and over by others here it's subjective. There won't be a definite answer because of so many factors, considerations, and variables. But as a group (crowdsourcing) there would be a general consensus in grouping Peaks with the value of helping others progress."

Wisdom of Crowds. A good read provided by a friend https://theconversation.com/how-to-unle ... owds-52774
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Re: Rank ALL the 14ers from Hardest to Easiest!

Post by Above_Treeline »

Scott P wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:29 am
Above_Treeline wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:59 am But, fun to look at when planning. And you realize maybe just try Blanca and maybe don't worry about LB this time.
Screw that. That would mean hiking the Lake Como Road twice unless you took an alternate route up each.
Yeah that road is kind of a big issue. So much vert and distance added. You know I actually didn't mind hiking it a mile or 2 past as far as 2wd car got? Talked to a couple people driving up in street legal trucks pretty cool.. Not very busy though and no loud non street legal stuff.
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