Climate Change

[timisimaginary]

if the coronavirus pandemic proved anything, it's that we as a society and a species are incapable of responding appropriately to an emergency that requires even a minimal amount of inconvenience or sacrifice on a nationwide or worldwide scale.

[ker0uac]

Anyone who hasn't noticed that climate is changing must be living in a different planet. Science has proven that the climate has been changing and has proven that we are pumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere and encroaching on wildlife more than ever before. However, I question whether Science has proven a causation or correlation. We don't even fully understand the mechanics of the universe, of which our planet is an infinitesimal tiny little piece, and yet we believe our presence here is capable of permanently altering the status quo established by chemical, biological and physical processes that we also don't fully understand? The idea that the human race, one of a zillion of species that inhabit this planet, is capable of single-handedly both destroying and fixing the climate seems extremely self-centered. What we are saying is that unless humans change their habits, our species will destroy the planet. Really? A race that had to lock itself in separate rooms and wear masks for over a year to deal with a virus that was just a few times deadlier than the common flu is capable of destroying the same force behind said virus? We aren't even capable of fighting a virus yet we are capable of permanently altering climate? We are barely able to predict next week's temperature, yet our cars and cows and industries are able to raise ocean levels?

However, I believe in living more sustainably to protect our health and instill better habits in our population. I want to stop dumping chemicals on waterways because I want to drink clean water and not because I think it will destroy our oceans. I want to reduce greenhouse gases because I want to breathe clean air, and not because I am concerned it will lead to the disappearance of Florida.

What do I think will happen if we don't change our ways? Our race will disappear and Earth will be just fine.

[BillMiddlebrook]

if the coronavirus pandemic proved anything, it's that we as a society and a species are incapable of responding appropriately to an emergency that requires even a minimal amount of inconvenience or sacrifice on a nationwide or worldwide scale.

Well, that failure was in huge part due to the orange CoronaVillain and his minions telling his gullible followers to ignore it. As a society we can do great things if we have good leadership and use our brains.

[Scott P]

Regulations on modern mining in the US (and especially Colorado) are anything but shoddy.

Mining is a necessity. And yes, a lot of the laws are indeed shoddy. And so are a lot of the companies doing the mining. And cottonmountaineering's example was excellent. I don't know of any mining company that cuts pollution out of the goodness of their hearts; (sadly) they will only do it if they are forced to.

I worked for both the gold and coal industries for many years and I saw a lot of shoddy things and shoddy laws.

My former supervisor at the gold refinery was even convicted of poisoning Mill Crek and the Jordan River in Utah:

https://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?re ... ci_3634505

What did he get as punishment for a 29 count indictment? Probation. If that isn't a shoddy law, I don't know what is. Perhaps I share some of the blame since I knew they were doing all kinds of shady crap and I didn't report it (I didn't know about poisoning the river though). I was in my early 20's though and was afraid of the consequences.

The coal industry as a whole is also incredibly shady and shoddy. So are several of the laws regulating it. I was always asked to do shady crap until I was so depressed, I just left. Since my house wasn't powered by coal, I used to justify myself working there, especially since I would rationalize it by thinking that if someone took my place, they might not care for the environment. If I spoke up against something that was shady I was told that it was industry standard to bend whatever laws were being bent.

If you want an example of a shoddy law concerning the coal mining industry, coal mines and power plants are required to report their emmissions. What they don't tell you is that they are only required to report emmissions from the plant. What they also don't tell you is that (at least in Colorado) a lot of the coal seams spontaneously combust when they are opened up and exposed to the air/oxygen. They simply bury them and let the underground slow burning fires burn for years, decades or centuries. Those emmissions and slow burning emmissions aren't reported and don't even have to be as per the (shoddy) laws. Unlike burning coal at the powerplant, these underground coal fires have no pollution controls what so ever and all pollutants are released in the air with no scrubbers, stacks, etc. On cold days you can see the ground smoking in many areas of coal mines or former coal mines. This is true even of ones that were shut down decades ago. The Gearhart Mine above Grand Junction, for example, still has a smoldering coal seam even though no coal has been mined there since 1968. The newer mines are still opening up coal seams and causing them to smolder (by exposing them to oxygen/air). I witnessed many of them buried. It isn't even illegal to do so and they don't have to report it. How is this not a shoddy law?

These are just a few examples of shoddy laws and since I worked for the industries for many years, I have seen it and experienced it.

So yes, we do need mining. There is no question about that. Just because it is needed though, doesn't mean it can't be done responsibly. It also doesn't mean that reasonable new laws that override some of the old shoddy ones shouldn't be implemented.

[madbuck]

Regulations on modern mining in the US (and especially Colorado) are anything but shoddy. You example is awful. Mining is heavily regulated by a veritable alphabet soup of county, state, and federal agencies.

it was an oversimplified example, 1850-1900 was a free for all that we are still paying consequences for in mining, regulations were introduced to make things better. there are superfund sites in colorado that were in operations in the 20th century as well. all im saying is that we currently do not have the environmental cost of carbon emissions baked into fossil fuels.

Nah, you were right the first time, cotton.
Extractive industries (including oil and gas) have used that line "(one of the most) heavily-regulated industries" for decades.
In fact, here's a quote I liked and saved from "Encounters with the Archdruid:"

This has been happening in the West for the past hundred years, but it doesn't have to happen. Poor housekeeping is poor housekeeping wherever you find it. I don't care if it's a mine or a kitchen. Traditionally, when mining companies finished in a place they just walked off. Responsible groups are not going to do that anymore. They're not going to leave trash; they're not going to deface the countryside. Think of that junk! If I had enough money, I'd come up here and clean it up."

Published in 1971, that puts the trite argument at least at 50 years old.

The tried-and-true formula is still consolidation, liquidation, bankruptcy, and externalizing the cost and risk to the public. Consider Blackjewel for a recent implementation in coal.

Yes, we (including myself) use and needed extracted resources. Yes, NIMBY-ism and ignorance about those industries is also a problem, as is lesser regulation abroad.
But there has to be a reasonable middle-ground, in that regulated extraction without undue public cost is not a "solved problem."


EDIT: Scott had some first-hand info above while I was typing mine and finding the quote. Thank you, Scott!

[tmud]

The important thing to remember is if you want to actually lower carbon emissions, then you need to support policies that increase wealth across the developing world, allowing those countries and their populations to be able to focus on conservation and green policies, and domestic policies that make it easy for producers and consumers to engage in the renewable market. Increasing accessibility will be much more effective than punishing coal/natural gas producers and as a result, their consumers.

[cottonmountaineering]

Regulations on modern mining in the US (and especially Colorado) are anything but shoddy. You example is awful. Mining is heavily regulated by a veritable alphabet soup of county, state, and federal agencies.

it was an oversimplified example, 1850-1900 was a free for all that we are still paying consequences for in mining, regulations were introduced to make things better. there are superfund sites in colorado that were in operations in the 20th century as well. all im saying is that we currently do not have the environmental cost of carbon emissions baked into fossil fuels.

Nah, you were right the first time, cotton.
Extractive industries (including oil and gas) have used that line "(one of the most) heavily-regulated industries" for decades.
In fact, here's a quote I liked and saved from "Encounters with the Archdruid:"

This has been happening in the West for the past hundred years, but it doesn't have to happen. Poor housekeeping is poor housekeeping wherever you find it. I don't care if it's a mine or a kitchen. Traditionally, when mining companies finished in a place they just walked off. Responsible groups are not going to do that anymore. They're not going to leave trash; they're not going to deface the countryside. Think of that junk! If I had enough money, I'd come up here and clean it up."

Published in 1971, that puts the trite argument at least at 50 years old.

The tried-and-true formula is still consolidation, liquidation, bankruptcy, and externalizing the cost and risk to the public. Consider Blackjewel for a recent implementation in coal.

Yes, we (including myself) use and needed extracted resources. Yes, NIMBY-ism and ignorance about those industries is also a problem, as is lesser regulation abroad.
But there has to be a reasonable middle-ground, in that regulated extraction without undue public cost is not a "solved problem."


EDIT: Scott had some first-hand info above while I was typing mine and finding the quote. Thank you, Scott!

thanks, i had coal mining in appalachia in mind but didnt have the references on hand. i also agree mining is necessary but we need to account for the true cost of extracting resources instead of subsidizing with taxpayer dollars afterwards

[greenonion]

if the coronavirus pandemic proved anything, it's that we as a society and a species are incapable of responding appropriately to an emergency that requires even a minimal amount of inconvenience or sacrifice on a nationwide or worldwide scale.

Well, that failure was in huge part due to the orange CoronaVillain and his minions telling his gullible followers to ignore it. As a society we can do great things if we have good leadership and use our brains.

+1

[painless4u2]

Well, that failure was in huge part due to the orange CoronaVillain and his minions telling his gullible followers to ignore it. As a society we can do great things if we have good leadership and use our brains.

I respectfully disagree. The Bad Orange Man was the one who hired Dr. Fauci to head up the Covid-19 response, who is now employed by the Great Dementia Leader. Trump also started the effort to quickly produce and deliver a vaccine, hardly someone who ignored the virus. He brought about shutting down a vibrant economy with strict isolation measures, an economy that he was very proud of. He also banned travel from China early, in spite of the flak received from the liberal press and their minions. On the contrary, it was impossible to "ignore it" throughout 2020, all while Trump was president.

[BillMiddlebrook]

Lol
Nope, I won’t bite on that garbage

[rijaca]

Well, that failure was in huge part due to the orange CoronaVillain and his minions telling his gullible followers to ignore it. As a society we can do great things if we have good leadership and use our brains.

I respectfully disagree. The Bad Orange Man was the one who hired Dr. Fauci to head up the Covid-19 response, who is now employed by the Great Dementia Leader. Trump also started the effort to quickly produce and deliver a vaccine, hardly someone who ignored the virus. He brought about shutting down a vibrant economy with strict isolation measures, an economy that he was very proud of. He also banned travel from China early, in spite of the flak received from the liberal press and their minions. On the contrary, it was impossible to "ignore it" throughout 2020, all while Trump was president.

Dr. Fauci has been director of NIAID (National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases) since 1984. It's in his job description to lead the response....

NIAID Mission
NIAID conducts and supports basic and applied research to better understand, treat, and ultimately prevent infectious, immunologic, and allergic diseases. For more than 60 years, NIAID research has led to new therapies, vaccines, diagnostic tests, and other technologies that have improved the health of millions of people in the United States and around the world.

In fiscal year 2021, the NIAID budget was $6.1 billion. The Institute dedicated these funds to support scientific opportunities that align with its mission and address domestic and global health problems and diseases.

Among the 27 Institutes and Centers that comprise the National Institutes of Health, NIAID has a unique mandate, which requires the Institute to respond to emerging public health threats. Toward this end, NIAID manages a complex and diverse research portfolio that aims to do the following:

Expand the breadth and depth of knowledge in all areas of infectious, immunologic, and allergic diseases
Develop flexible domestic and international research capacities to respond appropriately to emerging and re-emerging disease threats at home and abroad
NIAID advances the understanding, diagnosis, and treatment of many of the world’s most intractable and widespread diseases. Key research areas include newly emerging and re-emerging infectious diseases such as tuberculosis and influenza, HIV/AIDS, biodefense, and immune-mediated diseases including asthma and allergy.

[highpilgrim]

Well, that failure was in huge part due to the orange CoronaVillain and his minions telling his gullible followers to ignore it. As a society we can do great things if we have good leadership and use our brains.

I respectfully disagree.

Hahahahaha. Skunks just can’t change their stripes. Or the smell for that matter.

Sell it to your cronies, dentist.